Identity Library

00:02
Veronika Becher
Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Identity Library. My name is Veronika Becher and today I'm joined by Nima. Thank you so much for coming. I really appreciate your time. And actually this time it was him who approached me. It wasn't like me just being on the hunt for different episodes and finding really interesting people and it was just him. Him approaching me randomly at my company. So I hope you're enjoying this episode. And maybe. Small disclaimer. This episode will likely trigger some listeners and we're going to talk about some sensitive topics. So please just be advised and let's just get started. So, Nima, can you just talk a little bit about yourself and tell us more where you're from, who you are, what your last name is. Yes.

00:58
Nima Fatemi
So my name is Nima Fatemi. I am studying a PhD in design here at NCSU and I came here last year. I'm originally from Iran. We call it Iran back home.

01:15
Veronika Becher
Iran.

01:16
Nima Fatemi
Iran.

01:16
Veronika Becher
Germans say Iran.

01:18
Nima Fatemi
Yeah, it's just the R. Yeah, we're good.

01:21
Veronika Becher
We're good.

01:21
Nima Fatemi
You're good. So we actually call Germany something very different.

01:27
Veronika Becher
What do you call Germany?

01:28
Nima Fatemi
Ālmān.

01:29
Veronika Becher
Oh, it's like French [allemagne].

01:31
Nima Fatemi
Yeah.

01:32
Veronika Becher
Oh, look at that. This is the way your French skills from seventh grade come back to you.

01:37
Nima Fatemi
We had actually, historically we had lots of exchange with French people when the like, French language was prominent around the world. So we are. The system of our government renewed itself. So we got many French words from there. So, yeah, so I'm from Iran. I came here a year ago. It's a very interesting experience. I would like to talk about different aspects of experiencing living abroad, especially from a Middle Eastern point of view, especially from an Iranian point of view. So we are not very aligned, much aligned with our government. And most of us who immigrate or come to go to other countries to study, they are sort of get away from the type of government we have there. So, yeah, I would like to talk about this stuff.

02:33
Nima Fatemi
And also, so before I come here, I was living in Spain, Barcelona, for four years. Really?

02:40
Veronika Becher
Why Spain? Why Barcelona? This is funny. The last episode I recorded was literally about Spain. It's not even a joke. I'm like, I feel like we're just carrying on this whole topic about Spain and. Yeah, why Barcelona? Sorry.

02:54
Nima Fatemi
So. So Barcelona, it's an amazing city. I really suggest it to anyone to visit it. At least it's very historical. The alleys, the lanes you walk in, there are historical lanes. Many famous painters, artists, architects, they were there. They have like, for example, you Just randomly walking, like in some Paramus bags. It's like a. It's like a lane. Then you see a door, then you search the door. You notice that this is like a famous work by like just a random popular artist that. That is in style of art deco. So it's. It's a very amazing city. I moved there because there is a private architecture, private school that is famous and I wanted to try that school, get a master in it. And I also enjoyed the Spanish culture. I heard is you're also from Europe, so you maybe you've heard it.

04:01
Nima Fatemi
It's just a. Warmer now. I'm not saying warmer, they're just interestingly warmer. But I met many people from other countries in Europe that they're very warm, especially Germans.

04:17
Veronika Becher
I would say that's interesting because I have some friends that visited Austria and Germany and they were like, Germans are so cold. And I'm like, well, we can be cold. It really depends. But it really depends who you meet on the streets. It's the same as going to New York or to a different city in the United States. And then you get completely opposite experiences. Right. So one experience is like, oh, really nice people. And then you're like, I don't like these Americans. I'm sorry, but that's just what happens all the time.

04:46
Nima Fatemi
Yeah, I agree. It depends on the. Called like your home culture and how you brought up to expect things from people. So this is actually one of the things I would like to talk about later. But it's just that, have you heard when people talking about society, they say society expects you to do that, to do this, these expectations. First of all, I don't think it's wise to talk about it in third person. So society expects something from us. It's something that we are part of it too. We are dynamic parts of it. So we make these cultures and expectations.

05:32
Veronika Becher
So you're saying it's the people to blame for the fact that if we like to put something on a third person perspective because it kind of puts the blame away from us too as people.

05:42
Nima Fatemi
It's a cope.

05:43
Veronika Becher
Coping mechanism.

05:44
Nima Fatemi
Coping mechanism. So it makes you feel easier to criticize something because you know you're not part of it. But in fact we are part of it. Different cultures, actually not one culture at once. Since the Internet came out, we have a second culture that sometimes it's in another level that it has maybe contradictions with the culture we have back home. But the Internet culture is its own thing and it's the collection of expectations, ways of communication, signs. For example, you can say, have you seen this emoji of blue hat? So that's a sign, but it's a way people communicate in the Internet. So when we are brought up with these expectations and cultures, we go to another place. They have different ones because they have been brought up with different desires.

06:42
Nima Fatemi
So actually, based on some philosophers, some sociologists, one of the main things that makes those expectations are common desires for different things. For example, Americans, as might have everyone heard it in the world, they have a desire for more freedom, okay? So of course, like people in Germany or Spain also want to be free, but this is what they collectively desire, okay? And this becomes an expectation. It manifests into real world when we collectively believe something. So I just. Sorry, but because I want to talk about friend topics, I want you to lead what I'm saying to. Not to go away from.

07:29
Veronika Becher
Oh, don't worry. I'm just like, literally like a sponge right now, getting in all the information that you like sharing. And I'm like, oh, we jumped into, like such a deep topic right away. But I love it, since Identity Library is literally about that. It's about how do you find yourself? And. And the aspect of society was just never like, directly on my mind. But I feel like it's interesting to share with our listeners to just understand that, you know, when you move places, you need to, like, also see you're the one who's kind of also dictating how society sees the norm. Right. And what we expect as a rule or what we expect from others. But yeah, maybe like to kind of like lead you to the. To the topic back. I have one more question about Barcelona, and it's.

08:19
Veronika Becher
So you're studying design or architecture, right? Or is it specifically just design in general? Just to give, like a background.

08:28
Nima Fatemi
So I started with architecture. I have a bachelor's and master's in architecture from Iran. Then I thought, that is not my thing. Like, over that course, When I was 24 years old, I started to think, this is not what I'd like to do. Because I had several internships, two internships, and I just didn't like the work. Because what I was brought up to think about design in general was that people design things. And when you go work for someone, you're part of that team. In my country, in many offices, not all offices, the culture is that you work with someone, there will be no name of you published anywhere. You're just like a foot soldier, you know?

09:21
Veronika Becher
Oh, my gosh, this reminds me so Much of research, the way research in universities in Germany sometimes works. We had so many projects in business where I helped out for a research project. And the person who's on the paper is my professor, as well as two other professors. My name was never mentioned there, and it will probably never be mentioned. And there's just like a feeling of you don't feel valued, like your work is kind of like you're helping them succeed in life and get all the praise in a way, even though you want to contribute to the research, probably, well, like to the work.

09:55
Nima Fatemi
I agree completely. I think some of the favorite academic environments in the world is located in United States, in my opinion, because the thing is that the structure is very well defined. And what if you're doing something there is no work out of the definition of your duties that is not mentioned. So when you're working with your professor, everything is mentioned in your contract in other universities in Spain or back in Iran, these works go overshadowed by. By the professor because there's almost never. There's a clear contract between you and them. And that makes things like undefined things, makes the process complex and prone to faults. And this is something that happens. Yeah, I agree. Especially in academia, because in academia, if your name is on a paper and your name is not on a paper, it makes a lot of difference, you know.

11:04
Nima Fatemi
So, yeah, I didn't like the design environment overall, especially architecture. Then I tried to. So I was always interested into AI and psychology. And this seemed. Back then, because I wasn't a trend back then. We are talking 2015, 2014. I was interested because of a show I was watching. I just. I thought it's interesting. It's crazy.

11:34
Veronika Becher
Yeah, that just reminds me of like, you know, when you watch a show, a movie, and you're like, oh, I really want to go there, or I really want to visit this place in life. And it just inspires you.

11:43
Nima Fatemi
Yeah, that's actually. See, that's actually a dynamic. It's a natural dynamic that you watch different things. And then we can talk about this again too. Then you find yourself in it, and then you find yourself. It's not only the current version of you, is how you might become your potential. And it's a compass, you know, part of the job of like, you know, Zizek, he's a philosopher. Yes, European philosopher. He says that one of the functions of movies and shows is to show you what to use what you could desire. And one person, for example, we are talking about, like, let's talk about the show with many Characters like Game of Thrones, you talk with different people.

12:40
Nima Fatemi
There might be one two characters that everyone love, but except that each person have their own niche, unique character that they love and they, they're looking forward to see what happens to them is because they see part of their own desires, own characteristics in that person. Okay. And this is one of the main functions of stories in general, one of them, not all, is that you find yourself in them. And you can also predict how would your desire work because always stories have a morale or a hidden message or an unconscious message. So if you desire to, God forbid, harm someone, then there are stories that they'll teach you and predict that this desire will end in mayhem or in your self pain or others pain. So that's how things work. And it actually, it helped me a lot. So we'll get into more.

13:44
Veronika Becher
Yeah, I, I'm just so invested into this topic. Like I got into this, you know, we saw this podcast and I was like, you know, we will see what happens, whatever stories I get here. And it's just, I love how every single time when I see you, we have like a deep conversation. It's about something so random, but like we say it in German, like God in the world, like about everything that you can talk about the universe and I could just listen for it for hours. So I'm like just mesmerized in the situation. Yes. Maybe like storytelling. I'm thinking the same goes with like music or you know, when you see like in social settings when you work with kids.

14:26
Veronika Becher
I was a camp counselors this semester and I feel like so many camp counselors connected with the kids that were like in high school or like much younger than were because of the stories they had, because of the way they felt something or they liked something. And this is how you connect with people. Just kind of forgive a random thought to your idea.

14:45
Nima Fatemi
Yes.

14:46
Veronika Becher
But maybe going back to, you know, you coming to the United States after living in Barcelona for four years, you said. Right.

14:55
Nima Fatemi
So. Yes, so I was there. The main reason I approached you, I needed to tell my story to others. I already say it to anyone who I meet because I think I have a mission. Not like a serious mission, like God given mission.

15:17
Veronika Becher
This is how you become a spy.

15:19
Nima Fatemi
Yes, exactly. I just feel that some people might find it useful in later stages of their life to hear exactly those stories and you see how things might work for you even in hardest situations. So I went there to Barcelona to study and I finished my master's. I got hired by the same University Institute. And I was a teacher assistant there for a year and a half. This is the official explanation. The unofficial explanation of what happened there was that when I moved there, I was in a very long, deep, committed relationship for six years. And when I moved there, she couldn't move there with me. We thought it's going to work for us, but. So this might be. Someone might be hearing this and they have, like someone back home.

16:27
Nima Fatemi
It's just that it would never work unless you define a new way of relationship for both of you.

16:35
Veronika Becher
Long distance relationships, right?

16:36
Nima Fatemi
You have to change the whole dynamic of your relationship. You shouldn't expect that it's gonna be the same.

16:43
Veronika Becher
Right. You don't have the time even, let's be honest, I literally tried to call my best friend today and we have six hours difference. We're not even in a relationship. And I barely can talk to her all the time. She has a life, I have a life. We don't see each other all the time. And I cannot. Like, I tried long distance relationships too, but it's not an easy way out. And I feel like it shows you a lot of things that you maybe don't want to deal with. Like I have a friend who told me just recently, like, there's like, if you enter a long distance relationship, you end up seeing if the relationship is good or bad. Like, every factor that is in the relationship will be enhanced even more because you're far away from the person.

17:27
Veronika Becher
You don't see the person all the time. You're by yourself and you start feeling all the issues that you have. And if it's a good relationship, it will blossom to a better relationship, a stronger bond. But if there's an issue that is already there and you can't really communicate it properly, you will just be enhanced in the opposite direction. Yeah. And so I feel like six years is a long time. Like, really respect for like having a long distance relationship and trying to keep up with that while being in Barcelona too. Right.

17:59
Nima Fatemi
So, yeah, like, you might be watching, like different shows. You see this person who only dated like one person in their life. Before that relationship, I only dated another person. Okay, so two people. Before 24 years old, I only dated two people. Okay.

18:21
Veronika Becher
Nothing bad about that, right?

18:22
Nima Fatemi
It's not bad. It's just that I could sympathize in a good way. Like, for example, like, if you've seen Friends or How I met your mother, you see like Marshall or Ross that they like. I always felt like I'm like them.

18:38
Veronika Becher
You know, and this is the storytelling that comes back. This is how you find yourself.

18:44
Nima Fatemi
Myself, and not in a good way. So sometimes this is bad. You get lost actually in desires that you deem. It's. It's might be for you because. But because you haven't already enough explored yourself, you don't know. It's not for you, it's part of you, not all of you. Okay. So I thought I was in that relationship. Some things worked, some things didn't. Of course, because it didn't continue. And when I got there, we reached the same conclusion that we cannot go on like this and we broke up.

19:19
Veronika Becher
Can I ask a question? Was she in Iran? Yes, at that time. And then the second question is, did you meet each other in high school.

19:28
Nima Fatemi
Or was like the first year of college?

19:30
Veronika Becher
First year of college, yeah. How old are you? Can we share that?

19:34
Nima Fatemi
Yes, I was 19. 18 to 19 years.

19:37
Veronika Becher
Okay. Okay. No, that's a pretty decent age to get into a relationship. Yeah.

19:43
Nima Fatemi
Yeah. I wouldn't recommend a deeply committed relationship for a very young person as that age. I wouldn't recommend. Although it had many benefits for me and emotional, psychological, and I think for both of us it was constructive in a way that we. So you know already your age has seen this, that there are lots of dramas at start of the college or university. Emotional dramas. Okay. I was shielded from that and I had time to construct, focus on different other things. But I didn't know, and I think most of people wouldn't know that these dramas will come back at one point and because when everyone else was dealing with those dramas, they acquired the experience. You didn't, you didn't.

20:39
Veronika Becher
And so you cried later, right.

20:40
Nima Fatemi
You become introduced to them later when you're older. And older literally means more pain. So if you remember, I don't know if you know how to ride a bicycle. When were kid, I don't even remember how I did it. Okay. I remember I did it many times, but I don't remember how much painful or time consuming it was. But later, if I wanted to learn, for example, like a new sport, it became painful for me. As we grow older, the connections in our brain solidify in the, in the place they are the neurons, they. The connections become solidified. And when they are solidified, it's very hard to break them or change them. So it would be more painful for you if you want to learn very essential skills later in your life.

21:36
Veronika Becher
It's like learning language, right? Yes, it's the same. That's like the best example I could come up with like the older you get, the more difficult it is to like adjust to even the fact that people stick with their values. They like, isn't there a thing like when you're 25, your brain is like mostly like you have a solid foundation, kind of solid foundation. You still grow, but like your brain is like almost done with all processes and it's your basically you want really exceed anything. Like you want grow more than that.

22:12
Nima Fatemi
So I think so based on what I've studied briefly, because I'm amateur in this science, but I think we still grow pretty much more. But the rate becomes significantly less after early adulthood. It becomes significantly less. So there are things that you can learn in six months. You can learn a new language when you're like 12 years old. Then each year passes this, the, the rate makes it in half or 1 4th.

22:48
Veronika Becher
Yeah, yeah.

22:49
Nima Fatemi
It's, it's meaningful enough for us to be worried about some things to learn it faster. When you're younger. Some parts of the brain, they don't develop until they're. You're 40. There is a part that actually it's about how you show self restraint and control your impulses that is not developed until you're 30 years old.

23:17
Veronika Becher
Okay, that's crazy. So explains a lot though.

23:19
Nima Fatemi
Yeah, I fully understand.

23:21
Veronika Becher
I was just like, explains a lot.

23:24
Nima Fatemi
So. Yeah. And yeah, when the breakup happened, I felt a bit depressed. And we're not talking about being low or being just sad. I just felt my head is empty.

23:42
Veronika Becher
Did you feel something? Like it's a genuine question. Did you feel something or nothing at all? Because there are two options. Some people, they grieve in a way where something happens and you start crying or not really crying, but you feel so much that you can't handle it. And then others, like for me, for instance, when I go through breakups, I don't feel anything for the first month. I just feel like I'm a ghost and I'm existing in the room, but I don't feel anything. And I just like for instance, my, even when my grandma died just recently. I didn't feel anything. I was just like a ghost. I was confused why I don't feel the emotions that I should feel that everyone else feels. And that's why I'm curious. Like how do you.

24:29
Nima Fatemi
I would say it depends on the person, I think. But also depression is not. Not feeling anything is not. Also sadness is despair. It's like someone who is sad, angry, but also wants to Be sad and angry. There's a person who has no meaning, who has lost their meaning for life, for the things they do. And they are not willing also to acquire any new meaning because they're just tired. So I would say the feeling is a deep tiredness, a deep laziness. Somehow I would put it, okay, that you feel towards moving towards anything. And in another word, because I love this concept of how desires shape our world, ourselves, society. Everything is a state of desirelessness. So you don't have any desire for anything. You lose your desires, you know, so.

25:34
Veronika Becher
It's kind of like, you know, the. Have you heard of the 3K model? I don't know, like I think or H model. K is the German version of it. It's like the way you motivate yourself. It's a motivation concept.

25:47
Nima Fatemi
Okay.

25:48
Veronika Becher
And it just reminded me like intrinsic motivation, that's like the main thing and the model kind of to not go into like to main depths. But it's like in order to find intrinsic motivation, something that you find for yourself, something that will motivate you to go on to do things in life, you need to have like, your skills, your hand, your head and your heart in it. And when everything combined, you get into the state of flow. That's what they called.

26:16
Nima Fatemi
Yes.

26:16
Veronika Becher
And the flow state is the intrinsic motivation. But if one of the things are missing, for instance, your heart is not in it, your head is not in it, and everything just shuts down. You don't have the capability anymore to do something. Then you get into these like gray zones where you need so much willpower that if in willpower is only certain to a certain extent there. And if it's empty, you have no jar. Like, you know how people like you need to fill up your own like cup. There's nothing, there's nothing that will motivate you in even extrinsic. So a lot of people think, oh, then I should go for extrinsic motivation. So that's like, people use this concept in like management to like, you increase the, like the amount of money you will get the salary.

27:03
Nima Fatemi
These are extrinsic.

27:05
Veronika Becher
Yes, yes. But it won't help you because the issue is sometimes in order to feel the passion behind something you want to do in life and even the will to live in a meaning in life. Like I would literally put it like away from even business, just like further away and say, if you want intrinsic motivation, you need to finding yourself. It will not be something extrinsic where you're like, oh, I'm gonna go. You know how people, like, cut off their hair like women after breakup? It might motivate you, it might help you to have a fresh start, but it won't completely cure everything that is inside of you. And that's like the intrinsic motivation that is missing. Yeah. Which is like a. I just want.

27:44
Nima Fatemi
To show that, I guess, actually pretty nicely explains how depression works. So I would say. Exactly. Because. Because in your mind, in your perspective of the world, everything's dim, everything's negative, everything's meaningless. Then the things that they're supposed to make you happy, like money or pleasure, they can work only to make you survive the minimums, like, materialistic. So I will get into it, actually, right now because you mentioned this. So I was depressed. And of course, like any person who gets depressed or feels sad or feel there's no meaning in life, I try to do things. So I create meaning. I create pleasure, at least for myself. So maybe you've heard of this quote that actually, many psychologists and philosophers said the same thing, that if you can't find meaning in life, then you will immerse yourself in pleasures. Okay, because hedonism.

28:58
Nima Fatemi
Yes, because it can make you survive by the minimums. Okay? So our body doesn't understand meaning. Our body do understand pleasure, physical pleasure, okay? Like drinking or like eating good food.

29:17
Veronika Becher
Or anything that is like. Like, you know, when you don't know what is, like, enough, you just go overboard. You think, like, the more the better.

29:27
Nima Fatemi
And then you try to fill that hole inside you with these pleasures, but you don't know at the bottom there is a hole, there's another hole that it will empty out whatever you put in it, because it's like a black hole. So this is basically what you hear in psychology, especially psychoanalysis, they call it ego.

29:51
Veronika Becher
Okay?

29:52
Nima Fatemi
So ego is that black hole. Everyone has it, okay? Depressed people, they lose a construct, the super ego that they make above it, to connect with society and those expectations we talked about. And when you are depressed, you lose that superego. So everything that goes inside that hole, it never comes back. So I tried to immerse myself in pleasure and fun things and doing fun things. I also. The good part was that I became very daring and brave after my breakup and also after having the depression because I just felt nothing is so important. Okay? So I started taking drugs. And not intense, like hard drugs, mostly psychoactive drugs like marijuana and other psychedelic drugs. And we'll get to it later. I want to talk about that specifically. But so, yeah, that went on.

31:07
Nima Fatemi
And after two Years, I just found myself in a very deep depression. Because these things like drugs and stuff, they can help you again survive by the minimums, but they also make you numb. So. And this is a real issue. Like there's a song, it's called Comfortably Numb by Pink Floyd. It literally talks about this, how drugs can make you numb, about the stimulants around you, whether it to behaviors or your problems inside your head, like mindsets, you just become. Everything inside you grows naturally. You cannot change it, okay, because you become numb. You just feel. This is the way it is.

31:56
Veronika Becher
I feel you live passively. That's how I called. It's like when you stop taking life into your own hands and you just let life happen to you.

32:05
Nima Fatemi
Let go. Yeah, exactly. And you know, the main. The main dynamic by which we operate in this world is very simple, actually. Very, very simple. Down to its simplest dynamic, there are more complex things, but down to its simplest form, we act in this world, then we get. We get pleasure or punishment. And I'm not meaning punishment. Someone is deliberately punishing us. No, you see good effects or bad effects, and then you, in a feedback loop, you change a part of you or change parts of you or your mindset, part of your mindset or part of your behavior, then you go into the loop again. And if you see something positive, you. You do it more. Okay, this might sound negative to other people, but it's actually a pretty good thing. It's how any or creature learn things. And this is the simplest form.

33:16
Nima Fatemi
We are way more complex than that. Okay, so there are other things that have part in this dynamic, but in the simplest form, it's like that. And when you are already getting pleasure by doing absolutely nothing or even doing the harmful things, but yet getting the essential neurochemicals in your brain that when you actually do something healthy, you would get them, then. Then you become passive. You see no point in doing. And part of the thing that both helped me to survive but also hurted me during this time were the drugs. So later when I talked with the psychologist, like several years later, he told me that your situation would get a lot worse if you didn't use drugs in my situation. I'm not saying this is prescription for everyone.

34:13
Veronika Becher
To these measures, but yeah, and consult.

34:17
Nima Fatemi
So it's, you know, it's like the last resort. It's like a person who has a wound on, on their leg, and the wound has festered enough that you cannot fix it. You cut the leg.

34:32
Veronika Becher
Okay, It's. It's the Same.

34:33
Nima Fatemi
It's very extreme. I'm sorry to make this, but I want everyone to understand that these are not the first resorts. But when you're lost completely, something that might fill you a bit better about your life might be these soft again soft psychedelics. They're not the first resort. They're not so medication. At that time I was so depressed I didn't want medication. I felt you become part. Partly you become the enemy of with yourself. You don't want to get better. You are like this child, little child who says, I don't want anything. I just want to go be alone in my apartment or in my room with my toys. It's something like that. So of course, if you have access to medications, they work wonders actually. But if you, for any reason, you don't want medications because some people have some guards towards it.

35:42
Nima Fatemi
I can understand why. If you don't want any type of medication, if you're feeling absolutely horrible, these things can help you. At least you survive okay in this situation.

35:54
Veronika Becher
Yeah, well, it's not something that we can just apply to everyone, but based on the story, it makes sense.

36:00
Nima Fatemi
And it didn't end well for me. We'll get there.

36:02
Veronika Becher
And it reminds me of. Oh, I'm forgetting names of philosophers. Oh no. But hedonism is like. Or hedonism is basically the concept of it. And there was this philosopher, starts with an A. If someone remembers that, just text me. So he talks about how short, like if you follow whatever you feel in the moment, and it's like short desires, you will be like happy. But a lot of philosophers criticized him for that because the issue is you need to differentiate between different desires that you might encounter. And so there is a different philosopher that talks about the different types of desires you can actually have. And that sometimes eating the chocolate bar, that's the really famous example, makes you happy in the moment. But long term you will not be happy to eat this chocolate bar.

37:00
Veronika Becher
And maybe you should have like not used the money for the chocolate bar and instead save it up for your bike. And based on that, like just thinking what you just told me, that reminds me of it, that we try to like solve things really fast. We want to see results right away. We don't want to like, if we want results, but we think like, oh, I feel better a little bit, even though I feel nothing and I'm just numb. But maybe that's going to just help me to survive, to continue on in life. But we don't think about long term outcomes. We don't Think what will happen in the year if I continue like that? What will happen if I continue like that? And I just ignore everyone else around me and I just passively continue living my life.

37:46
Veronika Becher
And I'm really like hearing these things. And personally I wouldn't say that I dealt with specifically depression, but I've been like in places like last year where I was really down for different reasons. My grandma died, went through a breakup. Just things happened and you know, I can we. I can relate to your story back. I have one question that it has a little bit nothing to do with the flow before we get back into it, but I'm curious, would you say people learn, like learn through making the mistakes themselves or through someone telling them? Because that's like a big thing that I always think about. My aunt once said that you. She can help me or tell me often as she wants what she did wrong in her life.

38:36
Veronika Becher
But I will never actually learn the lesson to such a grave extent till I actually reach the point and make the same mistake. And I've been thinking about it, how, you know, it's easier to advise your friends on issues, on relationship issues or anything else and you want to help them, but they never understand until they get it themselves. And so what do you think about that?

39:01
Nima Fatemi
I really like how our talk is evolving because you tap on points each time that I would like to address. It's not planned, so it's. It's very interesting. So see, do you remember that dynamic? I told you in this simplest form that we do something, we get a feedback from the world, from other people, from actions, from processes. We get the feedback. Then we correct like it's like we're driving. Then we notice that we should move to right. We get some signs that we should move to right and then we should. We move to right. Then we don't bump into anything. If we bump into something, we notice next time we see that sign, we have to turn right. So I would say again, I have to approach this and build some notions before. Before I approach your question.

40:02
Nima Fatemi
So this is how we interact with the world. And when I say with the world, I don't mean only the physical world. When you are experiencing whatever you're experiencing, your consciousness is experiencing whatever it's experiencing. There is you and there is what it is not you. It could mean other people, it could mean a rock, it could mean a music. Anything that is not you is the world for you. So world has different levels of giving you signs. And again, I don't want your audience to get me wrong, when I say the world is give. Is giving you signs is only a metaphor. I do not mean the world. I'm not trying to infer that the world is alive. It could be for some people, I believe some parts of it. We'll talk about it later, about my opinions, but if you're interested.

41:05
Nima Fatemi
Of course, because. But I'm just saying that world will give you something. Okay? Imagine that ego, that person. There is only one way out, which is with your behavior or whatever you're saying. And there is only one way in. It could be what you perceive, it could be what you eat, it could be anything that is input to you and you have output. Okay? That input could be assigned for you to understand how you should correct yourself. For example, if I met you one time and I coldly greet you might be cold with me after that. So that's a sign for me, that, dude, you shouldn't greet someone so coldly. Okay? Something very simple like that. There are different levels of signs we get in this world to correct ourselves. And this is based. What I'm saying is based on Jungian psychology. Okay?

42:19
Nima Fatemi
This is how. Based on his words, collective unconsciousness and the world and many elements in it. They talk with you when you have to correct. You learn a lesson about something. The first level is that you see it or you see it in a very subtle, kind, loving manner. It could be. It could be a friend telling you're doing too much drugs, or you're too unkind with your loved ones, or you're ignorant of your duties. Your boss might tell you, so this is the first kindest way. And smart people, in my opinion, they get it right up at that stage because there are no consequences for you. You're just hearing it from someone. You can just easily listen to them. Of course, I understand you cannot listen to everyone. So you have to choose because not everyone has genuine.

43:20
Veronika Becher
A genuine opinion. It's like your best friend will probably, like, I trust the people that I'm the closest with that they will tell me directly, as a German, what they think. And if they tell me something, hey, like, something is up, they can you please pay attention to that? I will take it more to heart and to someone who's just maybe just saying that to me, because there's so many opinions out there and so many people that think they know what's the best for you. But sometimes you need to kind of listen to your gut feeling too, but also be open to listen. Like, that's what I do. Like, I would listen to the critique, understand that hey, maybe someone sees it differently. But then I also always get feedback from people that know me longer.

44:07
Veronika Becher
Also just to like kind of get a better picture of. Is it just a one person thing? Is it the person? Like because of the person itself.

44:15
Nima Fatemi
That's very important. I just want to add this before you say the rest because one of the rules by which you can find the genuine ones that are actually helpful for you and you can walk towards a better path. Two things you mentioned are the most important. How long they know you, so they don't make wrong judgments about what is good for you. The other one is how many people are saying this. So if there are like five people telling, pointing at a part of your character that is not very well developed, you should know there's something up for you. Okay. Like if you don't correct it, you'll meet other stage. We'll get to it. Please go. Sorry.

45:01
Veronika Becher
No problem. This reminds me of. You also need to pay attention that sometimes the people around you that are the closest are a reflection of yourself. I would say like the people around you are a reflection of certain traits that you have. And if you're mad at them for something, sometimes you also need to check if you have the same traits. Because we attract the same people. We attract people with the same interests. Really. Like it's really difficult to find people that are so different because even though we might be open to new values, we still stick to people that have really similar values, backgrounds. I think we had this conversation once about your current girlfriend and then how culturally things are aligning so well that we connect with the person better.

45:49
Veronika Becher
And that's when I come in and I think you need to find like also be aware of these like similarities and the reason why maybe you don't understand someone who's like from a different culture telling you something that bothers them is because the people around you are also not from like the US and it's a really interesting thing that my best friend does in relationships. She would like ask different friends groups that have nothing to do with each other, they don't know each other, they have different backgrounds to like give them her like a feedback of like what is like happening? How do they feel around the person? Do they, do they think this person is respectful? Do they feel respected? While talking to the person, like, what are the values?

46:36
Veronika Becher
And you get a broader range of subjective opinions but more different, like a variety of different opinions so you can actually form a better view of like, okay, this is Something extra work on. And this is not just something one person says to me. These are different people that have nothing to do with each other. They don't know each other, they can't influence each other or talk about it with each other and so on.

47:00
Nima Fatemi
I hope that, like, that's very interesting. I just, I think it's an interesting approach, but I think life and society in general, it gives you better tools. You just need to try more. Is that you already getting feedback, constant feedback from people around you when you're interacting with them. You just need enough experience to read on those feedbacks. The way people want to talk with you, the way they approach you, the way they message you. You can read things between those lines. That. How someone, if they're interested interacting with you, if you're talking too much, you just have to be a bit witty and smart and I. And get it from the moment. Because these things, they unroll in the moment. Okay, so for example, right now we're talking. Okay, I'm feeling that you want to say something.

48:04
Veronika Becher
Okay.

48:06
Nima Fatemi
Of course, it's obvious you would feel the same from me too. So there's things of this nature that when you interact with other people, you can pick up on. And actually, just last thing, when people, older people say we have more experience in life is people's experience that it's very hard to get and very complex. They're talking about people's experience, how to deal with people, how to get these small, subtle hints that you get.

48:37
Veronika Becher
It's for me, like, body language. Sometimes I feel part of it is people ask me sometimes, Veronika, how did you know this is how I feel? I'm like, it's really obvious. Sometimes the more you meet people, the more you sometimes see how people interact. Sit talk to you, how they turn around towards you. Like, I remember my first, like, ever relationship. I had my mom pinpointed to me. I didn't even see it. She's like, he didn't even turn around to look at you. Like, his body language, like, from outside, I would never think that you're in a relationship. He didn't even look at you. He just walked past you. And I was like, oh, these are things like you notice. But also I have a friend who would disagree completely with this point of view. Because sometimes we assume too fast before we know.

49:23
Veronika Becher
And you need to be conscious when we talk about these things where look at the body language, try to, like, understand the person, read the room. You need to do both. You need to understand it's your judgment it might be wrong but also acquiring some knowledge about it might help you a lot. Like having social gatherings with people like dinners that with people that you don't know well helps you a lot to read the room, what topics to talk about and what are not good topics to talk about. Especially when it comes to really critical ones. But kind of like to lean a little bit the topic back to like your relationship. So we like don't rip off completely.

50:02
Nima Fatemi
Just one thing left out.

50:03
Veronika Becher
We. Yes.

50:06
Nima Fatemi
You asked me how we learn something and I just quickly say that. So the first stage is that you learn something by just listening to people around you or the world willingly. Then later you don't listen. Then there would be a bad consequence. Those bad consequences, the start of any bad consequence means that you haven't paying enough attention around you. And they get worse until you learn. And some things you can get on with it in your life not learning about it. Some things the society is built in a way it will correct you. And we are talking about basic things. So for example, if you're a cold person, it's fine, you can go on with it. You might have less friends, you might don't go up the success ladder too fast because you don't socialize.

51:04
Nima Fatemi
These are fine, you can go on with it. But if you're a liar and you lie to everyone, you will get caught one time and you will get caught so painfully as your aunt said. I believe you mentioned that she said that sometimes you have to learn it by yourself. You by yourself means you will learn it so painfully your you pay such a price for it that you will never forget it. And, and you will always be a good boy.

51:33
Veronika Becher
This is how you become a good boy. But yeah, it will have a big impact. That's what I feel like. It's. It's like when you tell people be careful when you go outside. Be careful when you go outside all the time. You know when your parents just nag you on something. Well, the moment you realize why they did it. And the older you get and that's kind of like the kind of the fun fact about myself when I was younger I listened to my mom, but also I didn't really listen to my mom. And the older I get, the more understand their perspective. It's like you just never will tell them probably hundred percent that they were right because it's just a weird feeling of telling your parents oh you were right. But they know, they know that like it's.

52:16
Veronika Becher
Everyone goes through these stages and it's normal to make mistakes. And we're not trying to like, say like you need to be perfect and know everything you're going to do in life. It's just sometimes you should still listen. And I think that's something like, don't make the mistakes by yourself. Completely listen and be aware of what might happen and it might help you in life. So continuing with the relationship so we don't drift off. You said the relationship was bad or like the breakup. Depression. One year and a half. You lived and passively lived on your life. Yeah.

52:58
Nima Fatemi
So yeah, I was working, but I couldn't see meaning in my work. I just felt something I'm good at, so I have to do it because it makes me money and money will make me survive. This was my mindset. It wasn't like I'm making a change or it wasn't like. And part of it because that I used to actually, I was an atheist almost all my life, like Till I was 27, 8 years old. And at that time when I was depressed, I was still an atheist. Before that, I used to drive meaning for my actions from what I do and I thought, I'm good enough at what I do and this can help others and blah. But later when I get the depression I felt. So part of what gives you depression is a very simple question that you keep saying to yourself.

53:58
Nima Fatemi
In my opinion, it was very prominent. I always ask this question for myself in others. Might be one time, two time. But it's there because it's a very deep question. It's very simple. So what, I'm doing this for what? For what?

54:17
Veronika Becher
What is the reason? What is the meaning of life?

54:20
Nima Fatemi
Yeah. And again, in depression, you believe already that there is no meaning. You believe already that there's nothing behind the things we're doing.

54:31
Veronika Becher
So you enhance your own beliefs through your own feelings and emotions that are not there. And the more you convince yourself that it has no meaning. So it's kind of like justifying your own actions almost. You justify your own actions for not doing anything.

54:47
Nima Fatemi
You justify also your view because your action makes your situation later and your situation affirms your view. You're exactly like you say you. You say there's no meaning behind anything, so you don't do anything. Then when you don't do anything, everything becomes worse. Everything will become spoiled. Okay? And when everything is spoiled, you see, see, there is no point in everything and everything is negative. So it's like a horrible.

55:16
Veronika Becher
It's like Nietzsche of just. I'M thinking of Nietzsche and Kleist. I don't know if you heard of Kleist. Yes, like random story. Kleist decided to commit suicide. He wrote a fantastic novel, Makisse von. Oh, that's. What's the name? It's a German one German classic. And he commends himself because he was inspired by Nietzsche and he was such a depression that life has no meaning. And he commits suicide with his lover, not his wife, his lover. And he convinced his wife, but his wife was like, I don't understand you at all. And he convinced himself that it's. Why should I continue living through hell if I don't need it. He was also like, I think taking some drugs. Please don't judge me if it's completely wrong. But that was the story and it's the same thing.

56:12
Veronika Becher
Sometimes I feel like you need to turn around the thing. Like if you understand there's no meaning to life, because technically there isn't, if you see this way. But the fact that there's no meaning to life, you need to find the meaning or they create a meaning. Because no one will judge you in the end of the day. And most people will not remember who you are after you die. It matters maybe in a way what you're going to do with that while you live. Because it doesn't matter when you. When it's over. Right? It's something you find meaning for yourself, someone you might help along the way, some other generation that might benefit, who will continue to live on and so on.

56:51
Nima Fatemi
Specifically, like someone you might help in future. We get back to this. And I strongly believe that there is meaning to life. And there is. So we commit a kind of a fallacy when we say there is no meaning to life. Technically. I understand your point. When you say technically, it means based on science and the objective world there is outside of us, there is no meaning. I agree. But I don't understand why a human who has a brain, and they are inside that brain, must think about being, must ever think about what's the objective meaning of life. Because whatever you're going to experience is from your body. And your body is subjective and you don't need to consider objective ever in that manner. We'll get that. We'll get there. I just want to tell you a bit more of my story.

57:53
Nima Fatemi
I'll cut it short so I don't make you tired. But my depression got worse and worse. And also my situation wasn't the best because I was an Iranian in Europe Many banks in Europe, they're afraid of the sanctions if they open a bank account for an Iranian. So they didn't open a bank account for me for almost the four years I was there. I requested 11 times to have a bank account, like a simple bank account.

58:29
Veronika Becher
11 times.

58:30
Nima Fatemi
And I didn't have a bank account because they were just afraid to open a bank account for me because they could be sanctioned because the whole financial system in my country is sanctioned, is isolated from other systems. So you cannot send money, you cannot receive money, blah.

58:48
Veronika Becher
Yes, it's the same with Russia, Ukraine, war, completely same thing like Russian. It's the same thing like we used to support my grandma in Russia, just like monetary, because she didn't get much money from her pension. And we can't because at this point, well, my grandma is also not alive anymore. But also we can't because of the sanctions. Like everything is just blocked completely. Money transfer is blocked. And I know other countries suffer from the same issue where you don't get the any like. Like you can't open a bank account, you can't transfer in money, you can't receive any money. It's even difficult sometimes for a German open just a bank account in the United States because there are so many rules and you're like struggling with that. But we're not talking about like sanctions.

59:40
Nima Fatemi
There was this situation, each one of them hurted me a little bit, but multiplied by the depression I had is just made my situation worse and worse. Until we get to the 2019, December 20th. Something I don't remember when the Corona hit. First time I saw it in the news that the Corona has taken over the China. And I was afraid a little bit, I felt a bit weird that what will happen, this seems dangerous. And then maybe less than a month later than that, Krona took over all parts of the world and Spain and Italy, if you remember, they were one of the hardest place to hit and were in. So imagine you're already depressed and there is a pandemic going on and then suddenly your landlord, because you don't have a bank account, you can't request for more legitimate apartments.

01:00:49
Nima Fatemi
So you have to go request for some sketchy apart more sketchy apartments. Maybe they need less things from you because every place they need your bank account to check if you owe something. But they didn't request from me. So he told me that I have to move out in the middle of the pandemic. And it's quite funny that at the same Time I got the crone. I got my Covid too. I. I got. Yeah, I got covet.

01:01:20
Veronika Becher
Yeah, Covid. You got. Actually Covid.

01:01:22
Nima Fatemi
I remember that I have. I had to move and I. No one would rent me any places. Legitimate places, only weird places. And I finally had to just satisfy myself enough to live in an attic. In an attic without a window. In the middle of pandemic. So in Spain, for two months, I remember we couldn't go out of the house. We had the right to go out of the house 20 minutes every day and in the weekends, two hours. And the city service, the. The local government would come to our house, they would ask if we want anything from the local supermarkets and we would just order it like that.

01:02:11
Veronika Becher
Okay.

01:02:14
Nima Fatemi
And again, I didn't have a bank account, so it was. I couldn't even shop for anything when I was in the house. Pardon me? No, I wasn't starving. I was starving. The service, the city service for the. From the government was very good. They handled it very good. I. Whatever I wanted, I would just like selected. They had like a local app. I would select it and then I would pay for it, but the payment was a problem. So I, I had a friend there, they would help me pay for it and then I would pay them by cash. And I always had this like huge amount of cash in house. It's super dangerous. Barcelona, it's an amazing city, but it has a situation with thieves like daily, several times you literally hear out of the window that someone got robbed.

01:03:11
Nima Fatemi
Okay, I think top three places that you can get robbed. And I always had this knife next to my. Because I had a lot of money because I couldn't have bank account and. But I had to save my some money somewhere. So I had this knife next to my bed always. I was afraid. So I would pay my friend with cash and he would pay for my groceries. I also still got drugs. So at that point I was fully addicted to marijuana. And I would smoke maybe six, seven big joints each day. I would wake up, I couldn't feel even walking without smoking. And I'm not proud of it, of course this is horrible state. It's just that at that point with all of these horrible things. So imagine during the pandemic how stressed were. And I don't mean like for your life.

01:04:12
Nima Fatemi
It's just something that has never happened to humanity. The first several months, everyone were like shocked. And imagine you're in this windowless attic and you can't go out. The only thing you have is drug and maybe like watching or learning or reading something. And you're already depressed too. So the situation only got worse until my visa was expired to because the place I used to work, they didn't sponsor me anymore because they let go of many of their foreign employees because they had please pay for them a little bit insurance and this stuff. And they already. So I was working in school and the schools were all closed, so they couldn't sponsor my visa for the next year, 2020. So I lost my visa. I couldn't even at that point go back home because the flies were shot.

01:05:11
Nima Fatemi
So I just stayed in my room for three, four months in a dark room. And I was just smoking marijuana and just watching some things or reading some things. The only things I could do is to watch something or read something. I would barely actually eat at that point. I was so depressed I lost my will to enjoy the food. So I would only eat these crackers, digestive crackers, with milk, with chocolate milk. This is what I survived by. And my weight was dropped like maybe 20 pounds. And yeah, it got worse and worse and worse until one time I remember that I really got sick of it. I was like the same thing. You mentioned to me that it's like, it's hell for me. I can't go on like this. And I lost everything.

01:06:12
Nima Fatemi
I've worked in this country for like two, three years, but now I lost my visa. I made many sacrifices for myself. I lost my relationship that I was in for six years. So one of the things happen when you're depressed is that you purposefully sabotage your relationships with everyone. So I was mad at everyone in my life at that point. And I didn't want to even hear them. I would rarely talk with them, maybe once a month. And I wouldn't show to them that I'm depressed. This is one of the problems that if someone is depressed, many times it's a hidden issue. You wouldn't know until they want you to know. And in most cases, they don't want anyone to know. They don't even want to connect with anyone. They already let go of all the desires.

01:07:08
Nima Fatemi
As you remember, we talked about even the desire for connection to other people.

01:07:14
Veronika Becher
It reminds me of this commercial where these two men are sitting in the stadium. I don't know what company it is for. And it's like suicide awareness, things like that. And basically this one guy, he's super upset and he's sad all the time. And the other guy is like chewing him on and be like, super happy. It's like it's gonna be fine. And they show several days or several weeks and it happens all the time. And this other guy is sad. And one day the seat of the happy person is empty in the question or the answers of this message. I still remember such a good marketing campaign. If you think this way that sometimes you don't see what's actually happening. And the happiest people usually sometimes are the ones that also suffer the most. Was kind of sad.

01:08:04
Veronika Becher
So it's not always what you think. There isn't like a picture of how a depressed person looks like. It's not. There isn't a picture of how a.

01:08:13
Nima Fatemi
Sad person looks like expectations and those things we talked about society. It's not normalized in society. So pictures or signs or different way of communications are developed so people can save your depressed in a proper way. It's you'll get stagnated. People will think you're crazy or you're weak. When you say I'm depressed or you think there's something wrong with you. So nobody say sorry.

01:08:41
Veronika Becher
Don'T worry. I was done with the story. But it's just. That's the thing that I was thinking of. Did you drop your phone? This is what happens mid recording. No, it's just. It just reminds me of be aware of the people around you and try to understand them as much as you can. Because sometimes you don't even know that they're going some through something so serious. And even people say, especially I know this is a sensitive topic, but when people try to commit suicide the last hours or that's like scientifically proven, people usually are really happy. They're like the happiest people on earth. You think like what's wrong? Like they laugh, they talk, you think everything is fine. And it's just something in our head that just switches even though we already made the decision.

01:09:38
Nima Fatemi
And again those dark moments I actually thought of committing suicide and I later got on with it. So I. So when you want to do this, you might think about it for a long time until you do it. One of the reasons they ask you have you ever thought of harming yourself or committing suicide? Is that they know if you're thinking like the science of psychology knows. If you're thinking about this daily, several times a day in details of how you would do it or what other pill people would think. If you do it for a long time while you're depressed is not a good sign. It would eventually happen if there is no intervention okay. That's why they would ask you this on these questionnaires wherever you go for mental health. And I did it. I took some pills.

01:10:46
Nima Fatemi
And I even remember I chose like a song to leave this world with it. Okay. And I survived. How so when I took the pills and I went to bed to sleep and I knew these are my last moments. A friend who I haven't been in contact for like four months in Barcelona, suddenly at like 12 1am they messaged me, hey, how's it going? And they didn't know what I'm doing for four months. Okay? And they would never message me like that. Okay? This is my personal view. Objectively. There's no magic in anything. It's just physical world. But when you add the human factors, psychology, ego, society to this, there are magic, there are things. We don't know why it happens because we don't know this dynamic perfectly. We don't know how it works.

01:11:56
Veronika Becher
And I don't think we can ever figure it out. It's like the flow of the universe. It's like things happen and you like, why did I meet this person at this moment in this bus, on this bus, on this day, I could have picked the other bus. So like, why did it happen?

01:12:13
Nima Fatemi
Based on some people's opinion, like Carl Jung. Our society is not just a collection of individual people. We are part of a bigger, metaphorically living organism which is called society. And this organism has its own parts. And I'm just using metaphors to convey these complex ideas. If you're interested, you can read Jung. Just. You shouldn't judge these ideas only by my explanation. I'm just trying to simply explain it. So we are this organism called humanity.

01:12:54
Veronika Becher
Okay?

01:12:55
Nima Fatemi
This humanity has its own defense mechanisms, has its own red blood cells, has its own digestive system. But these are metaphors, of course. What I mean though is that based on those ideas, if I'm doing something bad to myself and I'm. But deep down, maybe I'm willing to come back to life. Maybe that system, that living system, activates some parts of it that responds to respond. So this is my opinion. Maybe we have time to get a little bit in that later. But. So this friend called me and they said, hi, how's it going? And I just had this habit that I would respond to people, okay? And I said, maybe he thinks something is wrong. So I respond to it. But I didn't know.

01:13:59
Nima Fatemi
When you're seeing your perspective in to the world is you're thinking that these are your last moments you will become dramatic. You will become dramatic and people will notice that. Of course you'll become dramatic. You, what you feel is that these are my last moments. Not like two hours before, like 10 minutes before I say farewell to this world. So I just. I wasn't myself when I talk with him. Then I just left the phone next to my bed, played the song. Then I don't remember what happened. The only scene I remember is that they broke the door, came in because my friend noticed there's something off with me. He noticed a bit before that I am already depressed. And he talked with me more after that because he felt something is wrong, sent me voice message. I didn't respond.

01:15:01
Nima Fatemi
He called me, I didn't respond. He knew I would be awake at that time. So after he didn't get any response. Thinking about all of this, it's very amazing to me how he reached this conclusion. It's very interesting. I always ask him. He told me, I just felt something is off with you that is dangerous. So yeah, he rescued me. I was in hospital for two days. And this experience changed my life after that. Because the first thing I noticed is that most of the people who might do this, they might think or thinking of doing this, they might think that it's just. You become free. You will become free of pain, you will become free of responsibility. But what they're not understanding is that free relates to a subject. And while a subject is. A subject is A perceiver is alive.

01:16:12
Nima Fatemi
So what they think is going to be like, they will see their soul, be free and go wherever or fly somewhere or they go to the afterlife. But what I experienced was absolute darkness. Nothingness. Nothing. How you sleep. How do you remember when you weren't in this world? You just open your eyes and you came to this world. You don't remember what happened before that. You remember all the history. No. What will happen after that, at least from the. From the physical view, is that I was in like. I was in like a deep sleep for one whole day. It was as if I closed my eyes and I opened my eyes after I felt nothing. I didn't even dream anything. I just immediately opened my eyes after I closed my eyes is nothingness.

01:17:15
Nima Fatemi
So if you think that if you do something, it would free you or it would make you feel no pain. No pain is when you had pain, then you have no pain, but you still exist. When you say I have no pain, there is a I. Death. There's no I. There's nothing. Your agent ship in this world is Gone. So one of the first things I noticed was this. The second thing I noticed, it was like as if weirdly, because this is a moving experience, although I willed it was a moving, very moving experience. The first times I opened my eyes in the hospital, I noticed I was thinking, what would happen if my friend didn't message me? What would happen if these doctors weren't here? What would happen if there was no hospital?

01:18:28
Nima Fatemi
I was strangely thinking of this because before that I thought there is no purpose in anything. There is no meaning in everything. Then oddly enough, one day, still in the hospital, maybe the third day, I noticed there is a meaning in life. It's very obvious. It's so obvious in front of our eyes that we always miss it. It's very obvious. We take it for granted. What is obvious. So we're in a studio now. Okay, just very quick question. What do you just tell me some of the things you see in this studio? Black walls. What else?

01:19:12
Veronika Becher
You sitting talking to me.

01:19:14
Nima Fatemi
The system.

01:19:15
Veronika Becher
System. Audio system.

01:19:18
Nima Fatemi
I noticed. So at. At that point I was thinking were technically based on what you said, also were monkeys, okay. We were some animals before were literally monkeys, okay. Based on the evolution. And were less evolved humans before. And then we evolved a bit and we became humans. But were still very primitive. What happened that we have all of these things in front of us right now, like this audio system, this microphone, these walls, these clothes, we have these phones, we have simply what happened. Not of course you can go on and explain all the details in the history, exactly at what moment, what happened, but generally why these things are in front of us, why there were things in front of us when were a baby came to this world. Because humans willed it to leave some things behind after they.

01:20:33
Nima Fatemi
They left this world. And the other person preserved that legacy, let's call it and adds to it and leave another part behind. So if there were people before they knew how to record good rooms that you can hear the music properly in the history, maybe in Greece, or maybe in ancient Persia, they were rooms. They architectured it in a way that the acoustics works perfectly, okay. And they tried things. So they died. We don't know even their name, but what is remained of their work, of those moments they experimented things how to build an acoustic room. Then people came after them, came after those ideas. They preserved it, they added to it. This is in front of us. It's literally all those lives of those people, all those moments they did things manifested into physical objects.

01:21:45
Nima Fatemi
As you can see, it in front of you. Okay, Anything you can pick. If your audience are in a car or in the street, anything you pick, there is generational wisdom behind it. How people build things. So I noticed at that point is that nature, the purpose of life. There are more complex purposes that are subjective. You can build it for yourself. But there is a factual, hands down, feet on earth meaning for life that you cannot deny it because you're experiencing it's in front of you. You can deny participating in this dynamic to. To experience something useful, pass it on to others and they.

01:22:44
Veronika Becher
To not. Not be part of the community. Like Jung, like the thing you said. Being part of this living society that is one body that acts together in like tries with the flow that is in it. Like work it out.

01:22:58
Nima Fatemi
So yeah, I just end this, that there is a purpose in life. There is a basic purpose. You can add to it. You cannot not follow it. You wouldn't be considered a human if you're not doing it. And there is no person who's not doing it. If you're at least in communication or connection with one person, you're still communicating how tiny it is. It's fine. You're still adding to this reservoir which is called our collective. There is a conscious part of the collective, there is unconscious part of the collective. We'll definitely talk about it. What is this collective? They're not physical things. They're the knowledge and notions and processes of how the physical things, the properties of physical things, how they could be made, the rules, who guards them. And that collective, I believe, is something we called God. We'll get into it later.

01:24:07
Nima Fatemi
It's just if you're interested. It's just that there is meaning. If someone says. If someone says there's no meaning to life because they lost themselves in all these scientific facts that try to be objective, but they don't understand this sublime but subtle fact that you are always a subject, you cannot be subjective. For example, they say, like some nihilist people, they say that the earth is going to be destroyed in like 5, 4 billion years. But you are like this guy, like Carl, you are Carl, 24 year old Carl, living in Germany, for example, 2024, you're that person. You're not going to be around 4 billion years later. How do you know in 4 billion years we're not going to do anything about that? How do you know? And there is no guarantee. But also there is no guarantee in good way, bad way.

01:25:21
Nima Fatemi
But humanity actually proved to us that actually if we consider the hopeful story that's almost always the case that will happen in general about our survival. Okay, so if someone tells me I find no value, no meaning in religion, more complex things like religions, I completely understand. I found no value, no meaning in it for long years after this experience. Actually, as I told you, I. I was thinking, seriously thinking full power for one day. I reached this conclusion that is in front of you. You can see there is a meaning in things around you. If they had no meaning, they would actually had no function.

01:26:14
Veronika Becher
But are we not a society, the ones that, going back to the topic in the beginning that we put into society and say, what is actually innate? What is actually a meaning in our society? Right. So maybe it's also you need to think about what is something that is meaningful for yourself, what is something society gives you. But also how can we contribute to the society? Because if we. It's important to contribute in finding your own meaning in your subjective meaning. And even though one meaning maybe falls apart and you can't find it anymore, there's always a way of finding a second meaning. So if one meaning disappears, it doesn't mean that was your only meaning in life. A lot of people put a big emphasis one specific thing in life, like getting this job, and it's like their meaning of life.

01:27:10
Veronika Becher
But they realize they don't get the job and the meaning of life is gone. But I think you should not think of meaning of life for her to construct that. It's like the whole time there and it's gonna continue all the time. There are several meanings of life that we have continuously through life, and they can be the smallest one ever. Just. Yeah, but you were kind of finishing it up and. Yeah.

01:27:36
Nima Fatemi
So I just want to clarify about what I said about meaning of life a bit more, is that first of all, what I said is there are subjective meanings and objective meanings. Objective meaning is actually quite a tricky combination of words because meaning is not objective inherently is. Meaning is subjective. But what I mean is that what you can observe without the matter of who you are outside of yourself is that there are. There is this container, conceptual container called humanity, that it contains all of the things we've been doing so far and it saves it and it adds to it by nature. And who adds to it? Their members. You can say, I'm not part of humanity and go live in the mountain and farm your own food and confederate off grid. Yeah, yeah. And still it's a legit thing. Okay.

01:28:38
Nima Fatemi
But while you're in a city and use the water, use electricity Use the Internet, you're part of the humanity. And that I think it's a basic one. Another meaning that again is objective, but is of a higher order, it explains more complex things is human connection, human interaction. Nothing would be possible around us, nothing. If people who had those individual ideas didn't connect. Human connection, I believe it has some sort of magic inside of it. By magic I mean something that it seems to me unnatural. You can't find it in the nature.

01:29:31
Nima Fatemi
How we humans work with each other through language and communicate with each other and decide for things, reach conclusions, change each other's opinions and yeah, that's another meaning that again, if you're in a society, if you had parents, they were humans, they connected with you, if you had friends, you're connecting with them. You cannot deny such something like this. That's why I'm saying it's objective. I don't mean objective as the. As it's straight meaning. Because meaning, again meaning is against objectiveness. Because objectiveness in the objectiveness, there is no brain, there is no person, there's only sensors who. That's why some sciences are so objective. So yeah, again, first order is that you're part of a system. You can see it, you're existing in a system, you can see it in front of you.

01:30:32
Nima Fatemi
Part of your purpose, your objective purpose, the purpose of life for you, not the purpose that you have for your life, is to still exist in the system and propagates it. Okay? And the higher order of this purpose again is to connect with fellow humans, any type of human you want, and do the first and create meanings, create meaning, preserve meaning, communicate with other people, you can save them. You are part of this body, humanity's body. 1,000 years ago, a Persian poem, he mentioned this in his work that humanity is written on the entrance of United nations. Okay? Humanity is part of a huge, big multifaceted body. If parts of the body has pain, all body has pain, okay? And I think this is another.

01:31:43
Nima Fatemi
Again, the higher purpose of life is that if you accept the first purpose, which is being part of the society and this concept of humanity, then if there's pain in this body, you must feel not easy and you should contribute to alleviate that pain. It could be something very trivial. It could be something very subtle, it could be something very big. It could be in different aspects. Maybe you are interested where the tongue of our humanity is, which relates to taste. Maybe you're interested to make good food. You make people very happy about their lives when you make good food. Maybe you're interested into the ear of humanity. Maybe you're interested into their heart, brain, whatever. It's just that you should know this. Humanity has different facets, different aspects. And you, whatever you're interested in, you should contribute to that.

01:32:46
Nima Fatemi
If you're not interested in contributing to it, then you will have no meaning. Done. That's when you fall into depression. And I'm not saying maybe you don't fall into depression. You will still have no meaning because that's the basic. Because you're in it, you know, if you're outside of it, if you're. Imagine you're living in a jungle with your own fellow jungle man. And then someone explains to you this, these concepts and you say, I don't care about it. I have whatever I want here. Of course. Okay, Library, live your life. You're. You're still though part of that tribe, okay? So that tribe is the mean, the basic meaning for you. Okay? If you're not in that tribe, then you would lose many of the things you think you are. So again, I. To whoever it might help them.

01:33:48
Nima Fatemi
There is a meaning in life. There are higher meanings you can choose and is subjective. Someone might say, the meaning for my life is to raise good children or to help other humans in pain or treat humans or create amazing music or go to heaven if you're religious or please God. However it works for you, it's fine. But know that there is a very basic meaning about life, that it's enough that. Always remember this part.

01:34:24
Veronika Becher
It's enough to exist. It's enough to just be you. It's enough to not overthink and try to find the meaning of life. Because the meaning of life already exists. The first part, the first step of meaning of life exists from the beginning on. The moment you open your eyes, you're already there.

01:34:42
Nima Fatemi
You already exist in it. I want to further your what?

01:34:46
Veronika Becher
You're part of it.

01:34:47
Nima Fatemi
Already in it. You're part of it.

01:34:49
Veronika Becher
And I think the thing that cut off my audio, unfortunately where things happen is if you don't see a different higher meaning in life that is reflected in society, you can always create one. And by creating it through community, through other people, through understanding that there are other people that might suffer from the same issues. Maybe there isn't a specific meaning in life or a specific spot in society for you, but maybe you'll find meaning somewhere else. And I think you need to think further. If you're the one responsible for the norms that are in society, you also can change it and change doesn't mean that you need to be the president of a whole country. That means you can just be. Just be you. Just be you and your family.

01:35:37
Veronika Becher
Just try to connect with the people locally around you, the closest people that are surrounded by you, and try to, like, understand them and listen to them and like, actively listen to them, what they need, and find your meaning in these small things. Yeah, I had a wonderful talk. Like, I really appreciate it for you approaching me. You know, this is like so random, right? Someone you just randomly decided to reply.

01:36:08
Nima Fatemi
Yeah, because we had these talks, deep talks, and I didn't know you had, like, this podcast. And the moment I noticed, were already talking about these things. So I just thought. Because I think not many of the things I said were actually other people's opinion, like philosophers or psychologists. So you might. You can choose not to believe in them or you can choose to go deeper or research further. But. But my own opinion, something that I reached and I told you about the purpose of life is something I deeply, personally experienced. And I. You still can completely deny it because I understand. It's my own perspective and experience about the world. It's just that I might think many people who might go through the depression or afraid of mental illness or.

01:37:01
Nima Fatemi
Or they already have had it before, experienced it before, they might find this useful to know that someone went to absolute hell and came back fine.

01:37:13
Veronika Becher
It's a wonderful person.

01:37:14
Nima Fatemi
Never experienced depression after that. When I went to the hospital, I briefly went to a psychologist to just get things sorted out, tidy after that. But. But it's just that the demeaning part, it fixed everything in my life. It's not magic. It's very obvious. It's deep down in our psyche. If you have meaning for your life and constructed, constructive, positive meaning, it will make your life better magically. So, yeah, I think it might.

01:37:54
Veronika Becher
And I really hope that whoever is suffering from depression, whatever, will maybe find this helpful, these words in the story and understand that. I really hope, dear listeners, whoever is listening, even if it's just one person, right? That was literally the beginning, the meaning of my podcast. I was hoping at least one person will listen to that and be happy about it.

01:38:20
Nima Fatemi
And maybe, yeah, one person makes me honored. Even if there is one person listening to this and they might not even agree with me, but they hear what I say, they might later convey it to others, narrate it to others, maybe they don't believe in it, but they see someone depressed and they can tell them that, dude, look around.

01:38:41
Veronika Becher
There's so much more that you can do.

01:38:44
Nima Fatemi
There's much more in the things you just deem as objects. There is much more into them than.

01:38:50
Veronika Becher
You might see on first sight. And I really hope that to the person that suffers from that they will have this one random friend, a random person that might help them out. And thank you, Nima. Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you for being on my podcast. I maybe in the future there's going to be another one about religion or something else.

01:39:18
Nima Fatemi
I hope.

01:39:19
Veronika Becher
It was wonderful having you here. And and dear listeners, please be careful. You're not alone. We all go through things. And being in no matter where you are in life and what age group you're in, everyone goes through things. And maybe the thought of not being alone makes it much easier. Thank you so much.