Identity Library

00:15
Veronika Becher
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Identity Library. My name is Veronika Becher. Oh my gosh, Cece. And today I'm joined by Cece Harrison. And can you imagine, this is the first introduction that I was actually failing on because the first five seconds she's just made me laugh and I wasn't even able to record it, but. Oh, yo, we had the weirdest introduction ever. My computer just completely went black out mode pure because I kicked the table. But basically I'm joined. Hey, Cece. And she's a really great friend of mine. I feel like I say it all the time in any episode, but I feel like her name was dropped several times in this episode. Not. Not this episode in my podcast. And I was like, we need to bring this girl onto this podcast. And she was reluctant, but we managed.

01:15
Veronika Becher
We got it. Okay. Okay. I'm. I'm giving myself some credits for the fact that I managed to do it. Would you like to introduce yourself maybe?

01:24
Cece Harrison
Like. Yeah. Hi, I'm Cece and I'm one of Veronika's friends. We've been friends for a bit over a year and a half now, I think. And I'm a nuclear engineering major with minors in mathematics and material science and engineering. And I'm a sophomore. Well, it's summer now, so I guess I'm a junior, class of 27. And, yeah.

01:52
Veronika Becher
Okay, give me a fun fact. I mean, it's not about. Only about majors, right? Okay.

01:58
Cece Harrison
Okay. A fun fact about me is I have quails. Lots of them.

02:04
Veronika Becher
Yeah, that's a good fun fact. I was like, she's also the greatest singer. She's really humble about everything she says, by the way. Like, you will probably never hear her boost about her accomplishments, but she's probably the smartest person I know. I'm not even exaggerating. And that's a non exaggerated Veronika, honest German answer. Really, really smart person, greatest friend. Like, seriously, someone who is probably my psychologist half of the time, I shouldn't say that, but someone who can be just there for me. And whenever I need to process things, she's like, okay, I'll call you. I'll check on you. I will listen to your talk for 10 hours and I will give you good advice and reply to your struggles. So love you.

02:50
Cece Harrison
I love being there for you. Thank you.

02:53
Veronika Becher
Thank you. So today, since this is like a special edition episode that I releasing right now in May, I hope everyone who's listening to this episode is enjoying their summer and had a great graduation. So check out the other episodes about graduation and everything. And I really wanted to talk about a topic that I feel like we never addressed. But it's important nowadays, I feel like. And it's being a woman in STEM fields or in general, like in engineering can be also business, but kind of like a little bit more gender related topic that just talks about it. I mean, it's an important field, right? So maybe like, let's just dive in, I mean, really spontaneously, however you want. Like I'm giving you the stage, like seriously.

03:49
Cece Harrison
Yeah, I guess to contextualize things a little bit for me and my personal journey and how I made my way to engineering. I was very dead set on being a political scientist for the longest time because all that really mattered to me was that I had a career that could help people and that I did something that could like kind of outlast me. And so the idea of getting involved in law and politics with was kind of the primary avenue that I thought about doing that in. I did do a summer program here right after my junior year of high school that was in nuclear engineering and that was three weeks long. And that was kind of the first STEM extracurricular I had ever done, ever.

04:43
Cece Harrison
And I don't know, I just kind of started to like, look around me and realize that like, you know, the people who are my age who are interested in doing engineering didn't like have any like thing that I didn't necessarily. And it was just kind of like a moment for me realizing like, oh, I don't have to already know all of these things. Like, I don't have to already know how to program everything and all of the different languages. I knew nothing about computers. And that's such a big part of engineering, which is part of why just the field and the career never crossed my mind. And I also, I met one of my counselors and she's kind of the closest thing that I have to a personal hero because she just, I mean, she was just, you know, she was a normal student.

05:38
Cece Harrison
She was like a sophomore at the time, but she just. I could for the first time, like I met somebody who is young, a young woman pursuing engineering and I could like see parts of myself in her. And she believed in me. And it was just like that experience that like made me believe that I could do it and made me realize that so long as I'm willing to work hard and put effort into this kind of thing, that I can do it. And engineering as a field was just really attractive to me because it has to do with really building things and making deliverables that are completely tangible, whereas things like politics, law, it's very much kind of a elusive medium, for lack of a better term. It's elusive is crazy. Lots of things change. Lots of things get undone.

06:40
Cece Harrison
And, I mean, obviously, when you engineer things, they can get undone as well, but it's just the kind of work that we do to kind of make new energy methods, specifically for nuclear, which is what I'm passionate about. The idea of increasing our energy security and having more sustainable energy methods, the idea that I can build things to that end was very exciting for me. And all I needed was really to see that I could do it and to see somebody who looked like me doing that field.

07:17
Cece Harrison
And so for the past couple years, I've tried to do as many, like, summer camps and as much outreach events as I possibly can, because if I can be that person for just one other kid out there, then it'll have been worth it for me, because just to be able to tell somebody, you might not think that you're enough, but all it takes is continued motivation and that you just continue to go at it, and you can get anywhere and you can rise anywhere, and you don't have to be born with it. You don't have to be naturally good at things. Like, I'm still figuring out my life when it comes to computers, but I'm now almost two years into doing computational nuclear materials research.

08:08
Cece Harrison
So the idea that, like, you don't need to already have it all together, and I feel like, especially fields like engineering, especially for women, we tend to look at those, and there's just a sort of barrier to entry because all. Anyways, I'm gonna get off my soapbox for a second. Anything. Anything in particular you want to dive into, Veronika.

08:33
Veronika Becher
No, it's totally fine. I feel like it was so natural. I'm like, who needs introductions? Honestly, I should have, like, literally. The fun fact is, I started recording, and cece already was talking. I'm like, man, I don't. Should I just leave it in? Like, who needs. Who needs actually, you know, an introduction? Cece just knows what she wants to say, and then she's the. Who was sitting in her car the whole time being like, I don't know.

08:57
Cece Harrison
If I should really do that.

08:59
Veronika Becher
What should I even talk about? And then Cece is, like, preparing a whole essay on how difficult it is to be instant engineering.

09:08
Cece Harrison
Well, I mean, there's still some different things to discuss, but I figured I'd give us a break. From me rambling there.

09:17
Veronika Becher
No, it's fantastic. I feel like. I think it's such an interesting topic because women rights and, like, even not even thinking about STEM and education, it's been such a long journey, and we're still not there where we should be, in my opinion. But then I never. This is maybe random, like, other thoughts that I had while you were talking. I never call myself a feminist, and I know a lot of people are like, why would you? Like, are you so negative towards women? Like, are you not supportive of women rights? I'm like, there's something about these past years that I've seen about women. Right. Movements that for some reason, are really extreme in the opposite direction, where it feels like women are superior than men sometimes, too.

10:05
Veronika Becher
Like, I don't know, maybe I'm just thinking that, like, not that it's actually implemented in society, but rather, this is how it feels like we should have. Like, it's too extreme. Like, I feel like it should be more in the middle ground. Like, oh, it's fine working with men and shouldn't be. Just women should have a huge percentage of. Like, I don't know. Does it make sense? Like, I feel like it's difficult to explain.

10:29
Cece Harrison
I definitely understand that. I feel like there. There is. When it comes to trying to shift the media perception of, like, women belonging in the kitchen, women being homemakers, teachers, nurses, those sorts of professions, when it came to, you know, people who are motivated to try and open more doors to women, they definitely kind of went to the extreme just to get that out there and to try and make that culture shift. So I think it's definitely a hard thing to do, to kind of alter that, all of these preconceptions and say, no, women can be doctors, women can be engineers.

11:10
Cece Harrison
And I mean, I would say, as somebody who identifies as a feminist, I think that definitely there's extremism in all sorts of different things, but I think in general, the mission of feminism and the idea has always been equality and equal opportunities. So I would definitely say that of course there's different people in different extremes, different levels, but that's at least how I view it. But, yeah, maybe, like, even.

11:46
Veronika Becher
I think what I like to say is not being a feminist, but rather to kind of justify it, being a supporter of women. What is kind of feminism? But what I mean by that is I love when women support each other, when they get together, when it's a community where you can be yourself, where it's really inclusive as. Wait, exclusive inclusive?

12:09
Cece Harrison
Yeah.

12:10
Veronika Becher
Yes. Sorry, I was just pausing. Like, I'm trying to say that everyone is included, not excluded. And I love where I don't feel like women are fighting against each other. Who's better? Because what I also have been seeing is in STEM fields, and that's generalizing it, that women compete against each other for a quota. So it's like almost, okay, we can only accept 10 women in the program. You know, when there is like a quota like that means women will be fighting against each other rather than we fight to have seats to begin with. Doesn't make sense. Like, it's perspective shift that I sometimes miss, where it's like, it's not about who's going to get the right husband. Oh, my gosh. It's not about the fact who's better out of all women in the room.

12:56
Veronika Becher
It's about the fact that it doesn't matter what my gender is. I have the same right to have a seat here independent. And that's something that I. I don't know. I hope in the future that's going to be the case right then. Dividing people and gender.

13:11
Cece Harrison
Yeah. No, I mean, I would say it's not so important what you call it, if you call it feminism, if you call it supporting women, so long as, like, I think in general people should have the attitude that it's good for people in society to want to generate value and it's good for us to support that and for us to not discriminate based on gender, based on anything. So. And yeah, I would say one of the barriers to entry for me personally when I was looking at STEM is I definitely most of what I saw was like, these almost like superhuman portrayals of women doing science. You look at our idols, Marie Curie. You look at just women in media.

13:57
Cece Harrison
And the essay that I wrote to all the colleges when I said, hi, my name's Cece, and two months ago I decided I wanted to be an engineer. Please, troll, trust me that I'll stick with this was. I called it my Modern Girl Boss essay because it was about this kind of portrayal of women just being completely perfect. Walking into the office, just looking flawless in their stilettos, ready to just make every man wonder why he even has a job. Because she's so good at what she does. She's just perfect. And I looked at that and I said, I could never be that. And some look at me and think that they can never be me now because I finally managed to get rid of my fear that I would never be able to be all of that.

14:48
Cece Harrison
And I focused on myself And I focused on developing myself. And I just tried my hardest to, like, you know, do the things I'm passionate about. And it's not as important to me if people think that, you know, I achieved, like, superhuman status or anything. And I certainly haven't yet, but, you know, I hope someday to really make something of myself. But it's. It's just like the fear that, like, it's impossible to measure up to, like, some of these, like, icons that have existed that, like, get so much attention. And, like, these are most of the only actual images of women doing, like, engineering and doing these STEM fields that you see in the media. Whereas, like, guys, you'll just be like, watching like, Top Gun. And there's a dude who's just chilling being an engineer, and that's just like, his job.

15:38
Cece Harrison
And he's just, like, vibing. And you're like, yeah, he's a guy. He's an engineer, sure. And that's just like, his job and it's just like, normal. Whereas, like, when. When it's women, a lot of times it's like, and she's an engineer and she's the best and all the guys want her and she's just amazing.

15:55
Veronika Becher
And like, I love the switch up and like, your voice, like, yes. And she's the most sexual human being on this planet.

16:05
Cece Harrison
Her nails are always done. Don't ask how she holds a screwdriver. She just does with her mind, with her girl power. Girl boss slay.

16:17
Veronika Becher
It's special power. If you didn't know yet, for everyone out there who's not an engineer, I'm just telling you, this is why I'm friends with engineers. I actually absorb the energy. I don't have it myself, but being surrounded by cc, I just become also telepathic. But basically. No, I totally agree. And the best thing is, you know how it's like the woman enters in the movie and she's like the most beautiful model for some reason too. And I'm like, man, that's not how it is either. That's not the picture you get. We are just human beings. And why the heck do women have to look pretty like a supermodel? And then, man, like, it doesn't matter.

16:57
Cece Harrison
You guys can't see me, but I started up a nuclear reactor today and I look like I haven't slept. And it's because I have so. Oh, my God, like, it's. And no, my. My nails aren't done. They're actually chewed down to the nub from studying for finals. So, yeah, it's engineering is not always pretty, unfortunately.

17:21
Veronika Becher
No, but I think it is. I, I'm happy that there are more initiatives that are trying to get more women into like STEM fields, but I think what I'm thinking of barrier to enter. I've experienced it actually, couple of months ago. So one of my closest friends is the director for IEEE on campus here. So that's for everyone who doesn't know it's a engineering society. I would say, like, is that the best way? Are you aware of it?

17:50
Cece Harrison
Do you know, man, I've never heard of that.

17:52
Veronika Becher
Oh my gosh.

17:53
Cece Harrison
Oh my gosh.

17:53
Veronika Becher
Never mind, never mind. It's actually one of, it's a huge like network of different universities across the globe or like the United States. And they specialize in like, it's mostly for electrical engineers, computer engineers. Like a lot of like, in general just engineers are like there, it doesn't matter what field you can find something. And they have from like robotics competitions to like different outreach companies coming in, like a lot of different events and subgroups. And so basically he was asking me for help with project management and I was like, this is probably just a small mini organization, realizing later it's a huge one. And he invited me, he was like, hey, you should come to one of our event.

18:35
Veronika Becher
And so this is like a STEM event and you always will tell me how it is to sit in a classroom, in a STEM classroom, as a woman, you can elaborate if you want to.

18:47
Cece Harrison
Yeah, my first. So usually like when I have my engineering classes, if I really don't know anybody, there's usually like a little clump of girls who you can sit with. And then like, we're all kind of fast friends because, you know, it's us against the world. But I walked into my fluids class at the beginning of last semester, or I guess the. Yeah, this spring semester. And I was like looking around, I'm like, where's the clump of girls? And there was no clump.

19:15
Veronika Becher
None existed.

19:15
Cece Harrison
There was none. There was one girl and she already was friends with a guy, so. So yeah, that was kind of a no go. So it was just, you know, me chilling by myself in this class of like 60 guys. And actually I tried really hard over the semester to make friends and nobody would be my friend.

19:32
Veronika Becher
Oh my gosh.

19:33
Cece Harrison
It was kind of, it was. There was some were better than others. There was like, who? I'm like, I don't even know you and I think you're like kind of a crap person because what the Heck.

19:45
Veronika Becher
Isn'T Fluence class also for seniors, or.

19:48
Cece Harrison
Is it Only Fluid mechanics is usually like, juniors, I think juniors.

19:52
Veronika Becher
Because I feel like I know Sam.

19:55
Cece Harrison
Took it this semester.

19:57
Veronika Becher
Yeah. And I know someone else who took it too, because there's an overlap. But basically. Basically, speaking of crappy people. No, I'm joking. So I'm entering this room. Thank you for the elaboration. That's exactly what I needed. And first of all, I'm a business major who's entering the engineering approved. And I was thinking, you know, they invited Texas Instruments. What is a huge company, right? Think of your calculators. That's what I like to explain to people who have no idea they do more than that. Just exclaimer. But I enter the space, and I was like, well, it's gonna be probably a small room of people. Like, it's okay. And then apparently they advertised so well that it was filled up. People were standing in the back. It was a hu Room. Like, were probably more than 80 people. Like, probably hundred something.

20:45
Veronika Becher
Like, it was so big. I'm like, this is not even funny. And I enter, like, you know, the bubbly self that I am sometimes. And I see Mario right away. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Hey, my friend. And I forgot that he's the president, but I'm, like, hugging him, and I'm hugging everyone, and I'm just, you know, like, being the huggy, touchy Veronika that I am, like. And I realized that I know the whole board member, like, all the board members almost. And the whole room goes like, who is this girl?

21:14
Cece Harrison
Oh, my gosh.

21:15
Veronika Becher
And I. So, like, a whole group of people are just watching me. Like, their eyes are following me. And I'm like, is this how Cece feels every single time when she takes engineering classes? So I'm standing in the back, and people are just looking at me, like, from time to time, being like. And the only two girls that are there are both married already, both from India. I'm also the only white girl, if I can say that this way. And people are like, oh, are you an electrical engineer? Wait, you're a computer engineer? Maybe computer science. And I'm like, I'm a business dude. So it was a really fun experience, but it made me realize, man, business is, like. It's something in between. Like, business is also mostly men, but for some reason, more women get into the programs nowadays.

22:07
Veronika Becher
But I feel like for some reason, more men end up in executive positions and more men stay in the field, too. Like, we start off with More women in a quota because of grades and because of women. I don't know, maybe it's a stereotype, but I feel like a lot of women are really involved in school and they get into the program, but they drop out or they switch and something else happens. So the quota changes. So you're like, you can meet women but then they are gone for some reason. Unless you're in a work field.

22:39
Cece Harrison
Yeah, no. The women in engineering also, similarly, the population kind of peters off and for similar reasons. I mean, a big part of engineering curriculums is having weed out classes. And just like, especially like your first couple years, you're really like, you're kind of getting like. I'm trying to think of like a.

23:04
Veronika Becher
Nice way of putting it. Yes. No, go ahead, just say the way to.

23:08
Cece Harrison
You're getting a little railed, not gonna lie. But you're just getting slammed with content. And it's a lot. And a lot of these classes are designed to weed you out and they're designed to make you consider, is this something I really want? And am I going to put in the time and the effort and the motivation to seriously get there? But like a really interesting stat and like a thing that's been studied a lot has been like, the women who end up dropping out of engineering as a result of these like weed out classes typically have better grades than their male counterparts who stay in engineering. And this just originates from like, you know, that lack of representation that I talked before about and like the idea that we have to be like amazing and like the best.

24:02
Cece Harrison
And like also, you know, even like in my experience, not being able to make friends and like, especially in the classes where it's all guys, like, they don't want anything to do with you. And so like, it's so much easier for women to like doubt themselves and to like wonder, am I supposed to be doing this? Can I do this? And to end up dropping out just in school and switching to a different kind of STEM major or even out of the STEM discipline. And then I mean, yeah, it's also a huge issue once you get to like professional level. You know, there's issues with workplace harassment, there's issues with just work culture where you know you're going to be the only woman at the office and sometimes they're not happy to have you there and they will push you out.

24:54
Cece Harrison
And a lot of women end up switching careers as a result. So it's the kind of thing that's just like, you hate to see it. And I mean, I think it's getting better. But even nuclear, we're 13% women last I checked. So I think my class is hovering around like 20% right now. But yeah, like, as. As a field, it's just. It's. It's quite the low split, so.

25:26
Veronika Becher
And that makes me sometimes think, what is the reason, besides the social aspects that women are less likely to be in? Like, business is crazy. I just said business. Business too, but engineering. And it makes me think sometimes, you know how there are so many theories on how your brain is developed and women are more creative, blah. You know, like the whole thing of, like, oh, STEM is more for men because men think more of this.

25:50
Cece Harrison
They'. Men are analytical and women are not. And I'm like, serious.

25:56
Veronika Becher
Exactly. And women are more emotional and emotion driven. I know there are some people that are listening to my podcast that probably disagree right now with what I'm gonna say, but in guests that I had on this podcast too, honestly. But you know what I think, and you could disagree. I think there are differences. Sometimes, like, I see, like when I talk about relationships with people, for instance, I feel like the way I have a conversation with a guy is different than with a girl because I think we sometimes do think differently. We approach relationships differently, we want different things. The values and what we get out of a relationship is not always the same.

26:36
Cece Harrison
There.

26:36
Veronika Becher
I would say there is a difference between genders, but I think at the same time, something that people forget is that these differences complement each other. And what I mean by that, I don't think that a woman is incapable of doing the same job as a man is only because someone is saying, oh, but he is more analytical. I don't think that's the case. I think only because I've seen so many men that think really similar to what we would consider, generally speaking, a woman would think like that. I'm like, I think we should not put it on gender, because it depends how you grew up, who you are as a person, if you're more into math or not. Like, think about that. If you were conditioned to believe that, you're bad enough. Okay, let's start with that.

27:20
Veronika Becher
Like, the amount of people think that they are not good to be in STEM because of their skills level, because of teachers previously saying that they're not good at something. It's just, I think there's so many factors that we can calculate and that makes you who you are as a person that you end up not going into a field. But I don't think that has something to do with, oh, this field is too technical or this field is not technical enough and you couldn't do it because you have a different gender.

27:48
Cece Harrison
Yeah, no, I mean, I would say, like, as a society and like, everything that comes with that, there's certainly like, on average you might see, like, differences, but so, like, you know, to support a little bit what you were saying and observing. But like, I think obviously I'm of the mind that like, inherently there is no difference significantly in the way that, like, what our brains are capable of and the kinds of things that we can do. When it comes to an engineering standpoint, when it comes to any kind of, you know, career standpoint, I think both men and women can serve very well in any kinds of roles that we have available today in our modern society. But yeah, I would just say, like, it's just, it's not as popular for girls to be into STEM and that kind of thing.

28:44
Cece Harrison
And it's just, it's not as widely encouraged. It's. It's dissociated with like, femininity. People act like, you know, if you're an engineer, you gotta, like, dress like a boy. And hey, just because I do it doesn't mean you have to. No, I'm kidding. I see.

29:01
Veronika Becher
It's not. Cece's wearing nice, cute dresses.

29:04
Cece Harrison
This is true. No, I, I actually, I love to like every now and then I like to get all yassified and go to my engineering classes and be like, that's right, guys, I do have dresses.

29:14
Veronika Becher
And she wears more dresses than I do. Like, honestly, the amount of times I'm like, more in business pants running around is like, tremendous in comparison to CC dressing up.

29:23
Cece Harrison
No, I, I love my humongous earrings. They're my favorite.

29:27
Veronika Becher
No, that's so true. That's so true. And honestly, I think that's what it reminds me of. This is so random. I don't know why I have this thought, but my advisor for my volunteering job, my neighbor to neighbor volunteering job, once said, well, he said, so we are mentoring kids that are in high school and we kind of helping them finding their career path. What is super difficult. Like, if you imagine back then when you were thinking of going into stem, you're not even thinking about stem, right? You were thinking about political science. And to be fair, that's exactly how a lot of kids feel like. Right. They don't know what to do. And so he was saying, well, it's so super difficult to imagine a job that you haven't seen before.

30:10
Veronika Becher
And he was like, I probably am a teacher because I've seen a teacher before, but what is about a job that I haven't seen before? And I was thinking, well, what is if it's a generational thing that you could say if your mom was an engineer, there's more than likely, or someone in your family who's a female engineer that you will more likely go into engineering because you've seen it before.

30:35
Cece Harrison
But what is.

30:36
Veronika Becher
If you've never seen it before? That means. Yeah, go ahead.

30:39
Cece Harrison
No, yeah, I was just gonna say, like, before I did that summer program, I don't think I'd ever met a woman engineer in my life. And I hadn't even met that many guy engineers. But like, yeah, no.

30:53
Veronika Becher
And think about how many different engineering professions there are out there that we don't even cover in school that are like sub, like niche engineering degrees that you could like, pursue or like directions, like career paths that I'm like, man, there's so many, I don't know, interesting jobs that we need. But because you've never seen it, you probably never get exposed to it, so you don't even know it exists that you possibly could even do it. And I think this is like a. Just a full circle thing. It's like there's no one there to show you that you can be. And there are certain people that break outside of the normal, like, rules and get to the job they want. But even then, you never know, right? Like, you need to be the. Do you have to always be the first person?

31:40
Veronika Becher
Like, sometimes you don't do it because you don't want to be the first person, right? No.

31:44
Cece Harrison
Yeah, exactly. I, I did not want to be the first woman to try to be a nuclear engineer at all. It's just, I feel like you're right. Like, you have to. I mean, you don't have to. But sometimes, you know, seeing is believing and being able to see somebody else doing something who's not so different from you makes you believe that you can do it.

32:09
Veronika Becher
I sometimes like, struggle so much because I haven't found anyone who pursued the career path I want to pursue right now in the struggle of it's not even about gender. It's like, I just don't see anyone who's done it. So I'm like, how the heck do I find someone who I can even call a mentor or like a role model because I want to do something that is a little bit different. And I'm like, man, I just don't know where to find this person who can ask for advice. How can I figure it out? And it feels like when you were talking about how you want. You went to so many outreach events. I'm just sitting here, I'm like, so proud of you. Like, I'm just like, hey, this is exactly what we need.

32:49
Veronika Becher
Because we need people that go out there and they are a representation maybe of a field that you would not consider, like, being like, a typical women, I don't know, female.

33:01
Cece Harrison
Like, yeah. I mean, like, once again, I just, I always go back to, like. Like, I really don't know where I would be if I hadn't done that program and if I hadn't met that counselor and like, had that experience, like, I probably wouldn't be here. And, you know, I'd probably be getting ready for law school. So it's just like, having programs like this, having outreach and like, especially having role models who are engineers, who are women engineers is just like, it's just so incredibly valuable. And like, I just always think, like, you know, I probably won't know the magnitude of the impact I make on people, but, like, I can just, you know, I can hope that, like, at the very least, I might somewhat normalize the idea of women in nuclear, of women in engineering.

34:01
Cece Harrison
And just by getting out there and making sure that the, that whatever panel is speaking at, like, whatever outreach event that we're doing, like, isn't all guys by. By showing that, like, women have a place in our department, have a place in this field, in this discipline, and just putting that out there, it normalizes it. It hopefully inspires people. And, and at the end of the day, you know, even if I am like, if I go out there and I barely do anything with my engineering career, if I at least recruit more people into this amazing discipline and get people to really believe in themselves, then I will have done something that I can be proud of.

34:46
Veronika Becher
This is like, I'm just proud of you. I'm just sitting here like, yes, you have a fan right now. A really big fan. No, I think it's a stereotype, something like that. Also, I was thinking of is people. I don't know. I feel like people are really. Since they have a stereotype and then they see, like, women and they're like, oh, I would never, like, I hear so many times, I would never date a woman that are. That is, that is an engineer. Like, have you heard that before? Like, people being like, dropping this randomly or like, oh, I don't think she's capable doing the same thing as I do. Like, there's so many comments you hear on daily basis. How do you deal with things like that? Like, if you ever get, like, a negative comment.

35:32
Cece Harrison
Yeah, I mean, I will say I think I've been fortunate. The most things that people have to say about me, they don't say to my face. But, I mean, yeah, it's. It is tough because sometimes you do notice that your professors treat you a little bit differently and not necessarily, like, bad differently, but just not how they would treat your male counterparts, which is, you know, it's just kind of interesting. But, yeah, I don't know. I think one of the great things that I've been able to find for me is, like, at least the friends that I have found, like, the guys who are, you know, who will, like, be friends with you, like, they just, you know, they genuinely don't care. And, like, that's. That's how it should be.

36:26
Cece Harrison
Like, it should not be a big deal necessarily, like, that I'm a woman in engineering or anything like that. Like, it's just I'm a person with an engineering major and I'm trying just as hard as the next guy to make it through and make it to the end. But, yeah, I don't tend to get people actively coming at me and doubting what I can do because I tend to be doing more than them. So they can't, you know, there's not really a leg to stand on there. I, you know, I mean, I do try to make whatever work I do good work and. Yeah, but, like, you know, there's.

37:11
Cece Harrison
There's jokes now and then they hear about DEI or, like, it won't be people talking about me, but they'll be talking about, like, some other girl in the department and they'll be like, oh, she's only, you know, like, whatever. And then like, you know, hearing things like that, and you have to wonder. Or even, like, the person who I said is my personal hero, like, I've heard people badmouthing her and they're like, she's just like. Basically, they're like, describing qualities that. It's so stereotypical.

37:38
Veronika Becher
It's.

37:39
Cece Harrison
They're describing qualities that, like, people would be like, wow, that guy's a great leader for being that way. Because she was. She was a president of a student organization for quite some time. And they're like, she's so direct and so, like, she's just, like, impersonal with the way that she's AKA Efficient at getting Things done. And they're like, she just, you know, she. She makes sure that, like, things happen in the way that, like, she plans them, too. And I'm like. And, like, she's literally one of the smartest, most amazing people I've met. And, like, I could do much worse than being just like her, which I'm not trying to be just like her. You know, I've really tried to, like, the role models that I've found.

38:23
Cece Harrison
I've tried to, like, almost, like, you know, mosaic it a little bit, because I don't want to do what she's doing with her career. But I do admire how she's gone through this degree and, like, the kind of leadership that she's brought to our department and our community. So, like, I try to emulate that kind of thing. But, like, you know, I also look at, like, some of, like, my upperclassmen friends who are guys, and I'm like, man, I would love to do this thing the way this person does. Or, like, I really wish that I could be more like this person with this kind of, like, drive and ambition and really be able to, like, get things done. So it's just. Yeah, that was, like, a little bit tangential towards the end.

39:02
Veronika Becher
No, don't mind. Don't worry. You're totally fine. I'm. I'm thinking about. I'm like. I think it's just also. Speak slowly how you talk about people, like, how you are talking about, like, other women in engineering, and I think that's admirable, too. It's not being jealous of the fact that they have achieved more than you did, or, like, it's not even more than you. It's the fact that. That they've achieved something.

39:27
Cece Harrison
Right. Okay. I'm sorry.

39:31
Veronika Becher
Yes. Yes. But.

39:33
Cece Harrison
But the fact that.

39:36
Veronika Becher
The fact that it's like, oh, it's admirable that these people did so much. And it's like, I've recorded just recently an episode, and it's just me being like, oh, I admire the people that are in my strategy class. I admire the people that even don't speak up all the time, because I think people are really smart. Not the loudest person knows the most. It's. Sometimes we just have different paths and different passions and different strengths and weaknesses. And the fact that someone is, as a strength in one thing doesn't mean that it's bad in the big picture. And I think I'm just. Yeah, that makes me super happy. Like, that's. That's how you talk about people, and that's admirable again.

40:16
Cece Harrison
Well, I mean, I would say most of the time for engineering, from what I've seen is like. Like when people are talking bad about, like, another student or like, another person they know, unless they did a group project with them and that person, like, did terrible, in which case your grievances are so justified. Group projects are the worst.

40:32
Veronika Becher
But like, oh, my gosh, yes.

40:34
Cece Harrison
If people are just, like, trying to tear somebody down, it's always because of jealousy. Because us, as engineers, we are very competitive. I am very competitive. It's. I love to be competitive. My best friend in the. One of my best friends in, like, the whole world is this guy who I met, like, when I came to school and I was like, oh, my God, it's the male Cece. Oh, my gosh. I'm like, this is terrifying. This is my carbon copy. This is crazy.

41:03
Veronika Becher
I should meet this person. I know. I need to know.

41:06
Cece Harrison
I think you've, like, met him like, once or twice.

41:08
Veronika Becher
Oh, my gosh.

41:09
Cece Harrison
I don't. Well, you've never had, like, a conversation.

41:13
Veronika Becher
But, like, no, that means I have met him yet. Because if I met him properly, that would have been a conversation of 30 minutes or more. Unless he was really busy and tried to just disappear as fast as possible into the nuclear reactor.

41:28
Cece Harrison
Yeah, he actually does also work there. We got our licenses together.

41:33
Veronika Becher
Oh, my gosh. By the way, speaking of nuclear reactor, can you. I know this. I don't know, I think this is maybe a nice, like, add on about our program. Like, can you just tell us more about the nuclear reactor? And it's on campus, right? Yeah, like, yeah, what you've been doing there. I mean, you're also a woman there. Probably one of the only ones too.

41:56
Cece Harrison
Yeah, no, the other woman is now graduating, so now it's just me. But. Oh, my gosh, guys, I am the diversity of the polestar reactor operators because we're all white too, so this is it, guys. I am the diversity brochure of the Polestar. The reactor on NC State's campus is called the Polestar, as you might have picked up on. And we have been operational since 1972, and we've actually been running on the same fuel ever since. So. You know, you always see those cartoons having all this, like, ooey gooey, like, nuclear waste everywhere spilling out of the facility. Well, you're wrong. We've had the same stuff since the 70s, so. And we store it all inside of our reactor. And yeah, we operate during the weeks. Typically, we have a lot of utilizers. We do like, neutron imaging.

42:53
Cece Harrison
You can also visit our website if you Google LCSU Polestar. I love the random.

43:01
Veronika Becher
Yeah, marketing is included. Just saying.

43:05
Cece Harrison
I'm not forget to like and subscribe.

43:08
Veronika Becher
I'm not getting sponsored by that.

43:10
Cece Harrison
Just a disclaimer.

43:11
Veronika Becher
It's a non paid advertisement.

43:13
Cece Harrison
Yes. Yeah, but no. Yeah, we have. We have the most powerful positron beam on the western hemisphere, which is pretty cool. We get to do lots of really great stuff for research, for materials research. We can expose things to radiation and see how they behave, which is really good for, you know, building reactors. When you're like, I wonder what this material is going to do if we make a fuel out of it. And you can. You can test that. So the NC State polestar is very cool. We have.

43:44
Veronika Becher
I think.

43:44
Cece Harrison
I think this year we had the. Or this past year we had the most tours of any research reactor. So, you know, that was cool. So, yeah, if you. If you go to NC State, you can, like, go to the website and try and reserve a tour or, like, try and find me Loki.

44:02
Veronika Becher
But Cece's gonna be the person leading the tour. Maybe. Most likely. She did actually. Fuss was fantastic.

44:10
Cece Harrison
It'll be me or it'll be Zach.

44:12
Veronika Becher
No, but you should have seen that. She was the most confident person I've seen in the gears. That's how I felt like she was like, I know everything, and I will tell you full, like, explanation. And I know you all are not nuclear engineers, but I will explain to you how this whole thing works and also why you should not throw yourself and your body for some reason, why this.

44:31
Cece Harrison
I don't know why you guys were so into jumping in the pool. That was. That was a big question. There.

44:38
Veronika Becher
There was a discussion for probably, I don't know how many minutes, but the whole tour was about us jumping into the.

44:45
Cece Harrison
Yeah. How deep you'd have to go. Water is a very good shield, which is why we use it. So, you know, that's. That's why treading water inside the nuclear.

44:54
Veronika Becher
Reactor, this is all it feels like.

44:55
Cece Harrison
And.

44:55
Veronika Becher
And I was just like, this is just crazy. We were like, how deep should you go? And then. And CC is like, poor Cece is like, I'm calculating in my head really fast the percentage and, like, the impact.

45:07
Cece Harrison
I don't have the attenuation coefficient of water memorized. I'm sorry. Honestly, of all the ones that I should have memorized, I should probably know that one. But, you know, we'll worry about that later in my degree I don't need another right now.

45:21
Veronika Becher
The.

45:22
Cece Harrison
The worry is.

45:23
Veronika Becher
No, the worry was the guy that was sitting at graduation in front of me, and he was shouting.

45:27
Cece Harrison
I got a 2.9.

45:29
Veronika Becher
Was a 2.9 GPA and I graduated with an engineering degree. And then the girl that was sitting next to me, she was like, oh, my gosh. I bet. Like, I hope he's not building anything for me. And I'm just like, this is so funny. I mean, not funny, but it's so true, though. But sometimes I think about it. I'm like, you know what? I don't think a GPA reflects really well if you're gonna be successful as a person.

45:54
Cece Harrison
No. Yeah. I mean, you can always. You can always get down bad in engineering with, like. If you have, like, one or two class go bad for you can drag you down.

46:04
Veronika Becher
It's like, goodbye, good cpa. Yeah. Or no sleep.

46:08
Cece Harrison
No, I can't. I can't do, like, the. The. Like, I don't know. I can't whistle that well to. You know. You guys know the sound I was thinking of maybe, like. You know, that sounds like a.

46:21
Veronika Becher
Like, atom bomb just exploded.

46:26
Cece Harrison
I kind of nailed. That was so good.

46:28
Veronika Becher
Oh, my God.

46:28
Cece Harrison
Actually, I. I ate that up. Yo.

46:32
Veronika Becher
Let's go.

46:33
Cece Harrison
I didn't see. I didn't believe in myself. And that's the problem, Veronika, because I believed in myself, and I did it, and it was amazing. And that is why you all should be women in engineering. Even if you're a man, you should be a woman in engineering because it's the best, and you just believe in yourself and it'll all be okay. It'll be great.

46:53
Veronika Becher
Do you know what I sometimes also admire is when men come to. To different organizational like. Like, events that are meant for women, actually. Like, you know how the woman center sometimes says man, too?

47:05
Cece Harrison
Yeah.

47:06
Veronika Becher
And I get why these spaces are meant for women only in a way, but, like, not only, but they're meant for, like, mostly women because it's, like, a space where they can be themselves. And, you know, you never know why people come to these type of centers, right? Maybe they're, like, scared of men because of past trauma. I don't know. They, like, whatever. But what I'm thinking is, I love when men are also exposed to, like, certain things and struggles and feelings and, like, events where women are present to kind of get, like, a reverse perspective of how life works sometimes and just see, oh, this is just something. This is what you do. And this is how I can get involved and I support women too because I think that's a really admirable fact if you can actually be involved too.

47:51
Cece Harrison
Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, I think obviously there are spaces that like we try to reserve for women to like give them those safe spaces or you know, to provide support. But like, I mean even for example, like I'm the new president for women in nuclear and like our club encourages everybody to join. Like, we genuinely put on events for like the whole department and like anybody shows up in the class, like guys, girls, your non binary pals, everybody. And like that's because our mission as an organization is not like to just like, you know, only be exclusive. It's to promote like, you know, to promote the inclusion of everyone in nuclear. And that includes women, that includes non binary individuals, that includes men, that includes just, you know, everybody who wants to be in engineering.

48:44
Cece Harrison
And it's just also while like having the club behind it and saying like, and this club is really supporting women in nuclear and anybody who wants to come to our events, that's awesome. And we're just here to be welcoming to everybody and to provide that space. So I mean, yeah, I don't think it obviously varies, but I think there are a lot of good organizations that are inclusive of everybody. And the whole point is that you have everyone coming and wanting to kind of all be like enthusiastic about that goal but also just hang out and do things together. It doesn't have to be a huge deal that it's affiliated all the time.

49:33
Veronika Becher
Might be my kind of last question that I feel is also interesting. How do you feel about being taught by mostly male professors? Because your department is so funny. The amount of times I hear from someone, some people like in your degree, like there's so many Soviet Union, like former Soviet Union, like professors, they all Russian or from some kind of like USSSR times like that, I'm like, I'm laughing at it. I'm like, this is funny. This is where all the professors went to, by the way, the United States afterwards. But yeah, I don't know if.

50:08
Cece Harrison
Yeah, yeah, I will say we've got, yeah, we've got a lot of, a lot of guys. But let's see. I think I've had like four women professors through, in STEM through my whole time here, which isn't, it's not too bad. I mean like that's like five classes a semester and I had four semesters so you know, or like quarter ish less. But yeah, I mean I will say, like, it doesn't make like as much of like a difference. I feel like once you're in the degree and once it's just like your professor, because most of the time, at least in like, at least a nuclear, like, you're not gonna like, develop like the most personal relationship with your professors.

51:00
Cece Harrison
So it doesn't really matter how much you can like, relate to them on that kind of level of like, did they also go through like being a woman in engineering and blah. And like the old women professors that I've had, you know, they're pretty much just the same as like the guy professors I had, except like, I feel like they get like, respected a little bit less. But, you know, or. Well, because we'll whine about our professors in whatever class. It doesn't matter if the class is like low key, easy and free. Like, we'll still whine. That's what we love to do as engineers. We like to whine. But so like it's, we just whine in different ways though. So like for guy professors, you'll just be like, I don't know, man, he's just so arrogant.

51:45
Cece Harrison
Whereas, like women professors, you'll be like, man, she's just annoying. Like, you know, you can like kind of see like the different biases that maybe come into that. But like, it doesn't feel like super deep at least, which I think probably speaks more for like the transition that we've made in academia in general than it does to like, what's happening right here, right now. Because, like, I think definitely in the past it was worse and it was just like all guy professors. And the guy professors were used to having all guy students. But like, at least now we've had women engineers for a while. It's not like crazy to have one. And like, usually you'll have like a handful per class and it's not always just like one.

52:37
Cece Harrison
So like, for the most part, the professors and the students relationship isn't too affected by gender, I don't think, in my experience, but at least not in any way that would be like harmful to me or my ability to learn. Which is good because that's what's important to me.

52:54
Veronika Becher
Is it stem related that you don't have a close connection to your professors? Or is it like only nuclear engineering specific for your degree right now? Like, what is the reason why you're not. Are there so many students?

53:06
Cece Harrison
Or I mean, the nuclear department's pretty small so like the professors will generally like know your name but like, you know, they don't care how your day's going like, which is fine, you know, Like I would say, I mean, I think it just kind of depends on the professor. I think it might be more of like a cultural thing for some of the professors in the nuclear department. But I wouldn't know enough about that to really know for sure. But I don't know, I mean because like I've definitely, I mean I had like a professor for like math this past semester and she was like just a ball of energy and she was like always like super into like how was your weekend?

53:50
Cece Harrison
She like tells you all about it and she wants to know about yours but like you know, and I mean that was a lot at 8:30. But it was great. She was great. I love, I love one morning person but well, because she'd been up for hours like doing like CrossFit and stuff. But if anybody goes to NC State, you probably maybe know who I'm talking about if you've taken higher level math courses. But, but yeah, no, I don't know. It's like not the craziest thing though because you're there for the class at the end of the day you don't need them to know you as a person or an individual a ton. Unless. That's totally crazy to say because given the look on your face right now, apparently that's an unhinged statement. Oh my gosh, no.

54:46
Veronika Becher
Okay, so you just exposed me. It was more me thinking, okay, I get it. But also I've seen so many other departments like business is similar. Like I feel like business depends on the professor and the class. You're taking the big lecture halls. It's less likely the professor will know you unless your name is Veronika and you're the only German student. I'm joking. But actually my Bescher thesis professor that is like my advisor for it. I took a class that was like a 200 something people class. It was like a huge lecture hall and he still remembered me. So I don't know if that speaks just about me, who I am or if it. I don't, I don't know, whatever it is.

55:26
Veronika Becher
But basically I think there are certain classes that I appreciate having the connection and others I don't really care as much because for instance when I was in horticulture Science I appreciate having the connection since I was transferring in, not having the background I needed.

55:45
Cece Harrison
So.

55:48
Veronika Becher
I feel like it was just. It was just a nice way of having a connection and someone giving you advice and helping you of, oh, how to get through some content and, like, explaining it better. And I enjoyed the personal connection. But also I've been to through, like, a German university system where it's like, you don't know, you know, barely anything about their life.

56:10
Cece Harrison
But.

56:10
Veronika Becher
Okay, going back actually, and kind of like wrapping it up to not, like, walk away from the actual topic.

56:16
Cece Harrison
Topic.

56:16
Veronika Becher
What is last comment or advice you would like to give when it comes to, like, anything we talked about today, something you want to leave to the listeners with anything that comes to mind.

56:27
Cece Harrison
That's. That's a toughie. I already. I already wasted all my ranting material earlier. Let's see. I mean, I would say it's just like, at the end of the day, like, yeah, engineering is, like, hard. But, like, it's only hard because it just requires a lot of effort and a lot of consistent effort. And you really don't have to come to school with anything too special to be successful in it. You just have to, like, want to do it. And so long as you, like, keep in mind why you want to do it and why you think that degree is important to you, getting to your end goal, whatever that might be, or even if you don't have an end goal. Cause, you know, not everybody does. But, like, just like.

57:17
Cece Harrison
Or if you know that you enjoy it and if you think that you're gonna, like, do well with that degree, think you'll be good at it or whatever, like, you do just need to see it out. You need to see it through. And not every class will be good. Not every professor will be good. Not every person you try to make friends with will want to be your friend. But that's okay, because generally engineering is only offered at very big schools. So you'll be able to find friends even if they're business students. I'm kidding. Oh, my gosh.

57:46
Veronika Becher
She did not drop that. This is crazy.

57:49
Cece Harrison
No, you'll find. You'll find all sorts of friends with all sorts of different backgrounds, and that's part of what makes it special. This is the easiest statement.

57:58
Veronika Becher
I'm sorry, I just need to get over that comment. It's like she just drops it out of nowhere. Well, okay, I acknowledge the fact that I'm more friends with business, with engineers and with business. Business students was kind of concerning at this point, and I maybe should transition.

58:11
Cece Harrison
We're so cool.

58:13
Veronika Becher
Oh, my gosh.

58:14
Cece Harrison
But that's crazy.

58:17
Veronika Becher
The amount of jokes I was listening to in horticulture was like, business people.

58:21
Cece Harrison
Would never take this class.

58:22
Veronika Becher
I'm like, yeah, thank you. I am a business student taking that class. But the best joke that I experienced in class, I was really random. I don't know why I'm. I'm dropping. It's germination in German nation. Like, you know.

58:36
Cece Harrison
Right.

58:37
Veronika Becher
Oh, oh, I get it.

58:39
Cece Harrison
I had to. I had to contextualize for myself that this was plant class.

58:43
Veronika Becher
Yeah.

58:45
Cece Harrison
I was like, he just said the same thing twice. But I. I got it. I'm up to speed.

58:51
Veronika Becher
Exactly.

58:52
Cece Harrison
This is the great mind of an NC State engineer, you guys. You see how. You see how quickly I figured that one out? That really. That really complex puzzle right there?

59:02
Veronika Becher
That's crazy. So, dear listeners, thank you so much for joining in our really fun. Germination. Yes, Nuclear engineering.

59:13
Cece Harrison
Believe in yourselves, even when it's hard.

59:16
Veronika Becher
Speaking of germination. Oh, yeah. There are a lot of plants that we bring to your nuclear reactor in order to see if there are like, mutations that like, happen with like the growth, etc. Through, like nuke. Oh my gosh. My brain is shutting down through like the nuclear reactor, if that makes sense.

59:37
Cece Harrison
Like just outside of the building or inside.

59:40
Veronika Becher
Well, like actually being exposed to.

59:42
Cece Harrison
Oh, like, did you guys get like an experiment request kind of thing?

59:46
Veronika Becher
No, but our department does it all the time. So this is something that runs through actually your nuclear engine, like reactor.

59:52
Cece Harrison
Right. I think I remember one of the professors. I'm like, stuff. Well, she does it with like plasmas to what I remember.

59:59
Veronika Becher
Exactly.

01:00:00
Cece Harrison
Yeah. That's my professor.

01:00:01
Veronika Becher
By the way, a fun fact. That's my plant publication professor. So basically, yes, and I failed on the name, but it's like Stoppelman or she's helping out. But basically it's like inter. I forgot the name how we call this mutation. But it's a process.

01:00:19
Cece Harrison
But yeah, right.

01:00:19
Veronika Becher
Yeah, this is the connection.

01:00:22
Cece Harrison
But.

01:00:22
Veronika Becher
But thank you so much again for listening coming to my podcast. I am so happy that you were here and I hope it inspired some people to go into stem. If you're not, please don't give up in the first year because the first year is always hard. And to be fair, I get it, but stick with it. If you are passionate about it, don't give up because of one stupid class or one professor you don't like.

01:00:46
Cece Harrison
No, and I mean like, yeah, people. People will doubt you throughout your whole life. You know, some. Sometimes you'll have a teacher who's like, you suck.

01:00:54
Veronika Becher
And you know what?

01:00:54
Cece Harrison
You just say you do suck. That's nice. But, you know, people say things for all sorts of reasons. And, like, really, at the end of the day, what other people think about what you're capable of is not important. And really, so long as you have time, so long as you have enough resources in you, take care of yourself so you have energy, then you can seriously accomplish anything. And I really. I really believe that.

01:01:21
Veronika Becher
Thank you so much. That was such a good ending.

01:01:24
Cece Harrison
Oh, yeah.

01:01:24
Veronika Becher
I will hear. Well, I will not hear from you. I wish you a great day. And that was such a random ending, but thank you so much for being here again. And have a nice day. Take care.

01:01:38
Cece Harrison
Bye. Bye.