Identity Library

00:14
Veronika Becher
Hey, everyone. And forever wondering, how can we start a whole new year without actually having an episode with Abdul Najjar? Well, you probably haven't heard for a while from him and you're asking yourself, well, what is actually happening? Is he actually still there? What is the whole thing? Is he returning to podcasting? And for now, unfortunately, I have to tell you that's not the case. But you will know I'll be probably the first person who's gonna record a new episode with this man. And since we all miss our old friend. He's not that old, but still. Well, I decided to finally publish this episode that's been long overdue. I hope you're all enjoying it. So you're getting the full introduction for everyone who doesn't know who Abdullah Najjar is. Abdullah is my. One of my probably best friends ever.

01:10
Veronika Becher
My podcast friend, my friend in general for life, for any discussion, for someone, you know, to have someone talk about life with a cup of tea or coffee and just laugh about the funniest and stupidest jokes ever. And honestly, he's also an international studies major who graduated from NC State a year ago. As well as he's an amazing person. I think he had an podcast. If you're interested in checking out a different podcast about espionage, FBI, CIA stuff, military related topics in the East Wing is still existing. It's still out there. And if you're curious, feel free to check it out in any of the platforms and with any. Without any further ado's, we will just start diving into the original podcast episode. Thank you. Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of Identity Library.

02:10
Veronika Becher
My name is Veronika Becher and today I'm joined by a final guest, Abdullah in a jar. And yes, it only took us 10 minutes to start this episode. And to be fair, I haven't recorded for two months. So, you know, when we had this like really spontaneous decision made, this was not a sentence. It's okay.

02:30
Abdullah Najjar
It's okay. Rephrase it.

02:34
Veronika Becher
I was like, abdullah, I know it's like nine in the evening. Let's record. And he was like so excited. Yeah. You want to, you want to talk a little bit too?

02:44
Abdullah Najjar
Sure. I am honestly very glad to be here. Like truly. Because we haven't done this in a long while and I feel like there's a lot to. Just a lot to talk about.

02:56
Veronika Becher
Really?

02:57
Abdullah Najjar
No, really. The list is a never ending list. Yes. Yeah. And I honestly think a lot of these, these things can be of benefit to many people. Right? The. The. We. We went over A couple of things were thinking about discussing. So I. I really think that people learning about our failures and maybe potential successes can have a. Can't have an impact.

03:23
Veronika Becher
Exactly. Everyone who don't know, you know, Abdullah. Abdullah's person who's gonna probably come to my podcast through the next semester and who knows, maybe after that.

03:40
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah. If we're still around.

03:44
Veronika Becher
Who knows? But, yeah. Dear listeners, I hope you had a wonderful break. Yes. If you're listening to this episode, it's probably not the first of the semester, but still, I hope you have a wonderful semester. Please don't stress yourself out. Yes, exams are starting. I feel it. But I think today's episode is actually about something that we never talked about, but especially being on, like, two podcasters. You encounter this question where people freak out, to be fair, over being, like, a podcast and being just in this whole environment where you have to talk and someone is recording you, but also maybe thinking about, like, your daily life. A lot of times we are so scared to approach strangers. Right. And something, to be fair, you need to imagine, like, the scene.

04:35
Veronika Becher
So Abdullah and I are sitting in my room, literally, probably in my closet, to be precise, drinking tea or whatever else we're doing, and just discussing the most random, like, deep talks that you can ever have. It looks like we're doing some shady stuff.

04:52
Abdullah Najjar
Just deep talks.

04:54
Veronika Becher
This sounds really wrong. I'm just saying. All the rumors. Because of you. I'm just saying. I'm just saying.

05:00
Abdullah Najjar
Me?

05:01
Veronika Becher
Yes.

05:01
Abdullah Najjar
Because of you, I'm as innocent as they come.

05:04
Veronika Becher
Oh, my gosh. That's so bad. Yes. To clarify, we're both single, it's fine, and we're not having anything.

05:13
Abdullah Najjar
Disclaimer, you know. Oh, my gosh.

05:14
Veronika Becher
You know, when you start with a disclaimer and the disclaimer is we're not dating, it's a crazy disclaimer, too. It's.

05:21
Abdullah Najjar
It's at the, you know, top five disclaimers, true facts.

05:27
Veronika Becher
But yeah, the question that we're kind of, like, trying to get into is, like, how to start a conversation. And it kind of. I don't know, I feel like it's a topic that no one talks about when people do, but not as often. Like, everyone assumes that, you know how to, like, approach a stranger. And I'm not saying you should just go out and approach a stranger. That's not what we're trying to get out of this episode. But I think rather, how can you have a conversation with someone and not offend them in any way, but also just be Yourself, Right. Be authentic self. So, my dear friend, I've talked too.

06:03
Abdullah Najjar
Much, but do I answer it?

06:06
Veronika Becher
You can start if you want to.

06:08
Abdullah Najjar
That's. That's a good. That's a good question, actually. And I think it's more about. For me, there's so many examples of how I started a conversation with someone, and it was a good conversation. And there were examples of how I failed in my attempt to start a conversation. And there's also a category, perhaps I can add a third, where the beginning was rough. But then as we started talking, me and the other party, things started to progress in a very, I think, positive direction. So we can. We can go over all of these, and then from these examples, we can. And I'm sure you have many to share as well. But from these examples, you and I can arrive at a. At a. Perhaps answer as to how from these successes and failures, one can start a conversation. Right.

07:12
Veronika Becher
I love how this feels like a strategic plan. I've been taking too many strategic classes this semester, and it's just like, okay, we're going to do this and that. And according to the Globe study that I'm also looking into for my research, it's just so funny how you, like, establish a whole, like, plan. I think, yes, it was spontaneous. Y. I'm going to be the executive person that will actually stop you from doing what you're trying to do and actually maybe steer it a little bit in a different direction first. I think. Why would you like. I would like to start with a different question rather. Why do you want to approach someone?

07:48
Abdullah Najjar
Oh, why? Okay. I think there are a variety of reasons. I think one. I think one primary reason for me stems from my desire to want to learn something new. And I'm a curious person. I'm sure you are, too. So, generally speaking. And you know, which explains why we are hosting podcasts, right? We like. We like exploring ideas. We like to learn something new. But I think there's also. There's novelty to, I think, meeting a stranger who potentially has a lot to offer and a lot to share. So I think for me, it's two factors that drive me toward wanting to perhaps approach a person. One is curiosity, and the other is a desire for a conversation. So, yeah, I think there are examples. I think many examples of these incidents.

08:59
Abdullah Najjar
I don't know if the right word is incident, but there have been, throughout my life, 24 years of age, many examples where these things happened. And I ended up having perhaps a short conversation, maybe even longer, and sometimes no words are uttered. You just approach a person and you're merely seeking company. And it seems like both parties are okay with that. You know, this. This. This idea of seeking human contact in the physical sense or the physical presence, but not necessarily human contact through conversation. So I have examples from all these sort of rough categories that I've laid out. And I think I digressed a little bit toward the end because the original question that you had was why, right? Why approach someone? And I think I've laid out two things. One is curiosity, and the other is desire for a conversation.

10:00
Veronika Becher
I would say for me, why I approach someone is really similar to what you mentioned, But I think from a standpoint of someone moving from place to place, the reason why I approach people is to find friends, to have the connections even, or, I don't know, let's look into, like, the business world. I am a business student. Why do you approach people? For creating my own network, for joining a club. Like, you always have interactions. It's like, you know, one of the things we've been learning about is, like, almost every company wants you to see to be a good team worker. Like, if you're bad at teamwork and you cannot talk to people, you kind of like, why. Why are you here? Why are you in the space? Like, people, like, companies would not hire you because you're not a team worker.

10:48
Veronika Becher
And I think communication is a big thing. And the more we're progressing towards, like, a global environment where more and more people come together to the same table, you, like, start asking yourself, how can I approach someone who has such a different, like, worldview and have a conversation with. Without offending them and still understanding the other person, too? So I think it's. It's much more, like, much deeper than that. And I think conversations also have two sides. I went to, like, a class retreat for my fellowship program, like, a week ago, and were doing, like, active listening, improvisation, like, exercises. And one thing that the lady asked us is to line up. So basically, we cannot talk to each other. We have to line up accordingly what we think, who's the best communicator in the whole group? And who is the least communicator?

11:45
Veronika Becher
And it's really interesting, she asked first, who's the best communicator? And so the way we lined up was kind of like, who talks the most? Who is the most open and approaches people? But then she said, who's the best listener? And for some reason, both sides switched completely. And the people that were, like, usually the enthusiastic people. And I Actually realized that for myself, I switched positions too, because I was like, well, I'm really good with approaching people, but I don't think I'm a good listener. And then I positioned myself on the other side and almost everyone around me also positioned themselves on the other side. We switched completely because people that were more introverted thought, oh, I'm a good listener, but I'm not good at communicating, talking to someone.

12:29
Veronika Becher
So the interesting thing is that kind of like fits into this whole topic is she said after that, well, actually, both questions answered, you have the same answer for both questions because a good communicator is a good listener. And so if you communicate doesn't mean that you talk. It means to understand the other person by listening too. It's two of the same coin. It's not that you talk and approach people well. It's also you can listen to people and understand them too. Because communication is not just you being the loudest in the room. And I think we hear that all the time. But I think this exercise just made me think, oh my gosh, this is like, it makes so much more sense. Like I should actually approach communication from a completely different standpoint where pay attention when I communicate.

13:22
Veronika Becher
That communication goes beyond just what you're saying, how you're listening, and how you actually also behave. What is like your body language telling you and how does it make the other person feel? Like, like an example, if someone approaches you and you don't like physical touch, this is also a thing. This is also a communication part, right? Touching someone or being in someone's space or being one and like distance level. And I think these are like all aspects that kind of, for me personally explain why do I want to communicate? Why do I want to talk to someone? Because I want to understand how to approach people and what dynamics could be like between two people at the same time.

14:03
Abdullah Najjar
We all have different, I think communication styles, all encompassing. I'm using the word the way, the same way you used it, right? Communication as an all encompassing something that not necessarily just captures the idea of verbalizing your thoughts, but also the element of body language, the element of listening, the element of space that you give a person. I think we all have different styles and ways of doing it. Some are wired, as you indicated, to listen more. And some actually are more interested in just really wanting to share than wanting to maybe learn something. Because there's an urge, maybe someone had not had a person in their life where they can talk to or share things with. So they're driven by the desire of really wanting to unload what they have in mind or their stories or who they are.

15:12
Abdullah Najjar
So there's, there's a, you know, there's that desire to want to just want to share. And. Some people are maybe lonely, which has been. Is a topic that we explored, my former guest and I, on my podcast. Some people are lonely and they just want someone to listen to them. They just want to talk. They haven't had the chance to communicate with anybody for a long while. And so the minute someone shows them or gives them attention, they jump on that opportunity to just talk. I don't think they're interested as much in listening. And it's not. And I'm not just casting dispersions on these people. It's just that's an observation. Does that make sense?

16:05
Veronika Becher
Yes. My, my grandma, actually from my dad's side, she calls my mom all the time to just talk because she lives by herself. And my mom just listens to her for an hour. And I'm like, this is crazy. Like, I don't know how my mom has so much patience, but she's like, well, I think if I would live by myself and I wouldn't interact much with people, I would crave too, to just have a small, like one hour talk once a week. Right. And so she's like, sometimes you don't really have to say anything. You just listen to what a person is saying. And I think it makes totally sense what you're trying to like, say with the type of communication that sometimes you don't really have to talk. But we also, were talking about the awkward silence, right?

16:49
Veronika Becher
Moments where you don't actually talk and you just have this silence moment. And I realized the right people are the ones that make you feel comfortable in the awkward silence where you realize you don't actually have to say something. You don't, because that's what we think, but that's not what it has to be. Sometimes it's okay to not say something because we are so wired that we have to be like, on the go and really fast, reply to something, react, be like, really responsive to like, really short incoming, like, urges and whatever else is happening in your, like, surrounding environment. But I feel like sometimes you just should not say anything and just be present in the moment. Like, do you know, like, you know, when we, like, just read books next to each other and not talk to each other at all?

17:41
Abdullah Najjar
Right.

17:42
Veronika Becher
I don't think it's a bad thing. Right?

17:44
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah. Because we're both engaged in something. But even I think in another situation, we might not be engaged in something. We still. There's still silence too. And I don't think that ever happened between us, but I'm just saying, like a random scenario. I think even silence when someone is not engaged in an activity is also. Well, actually, let me see. Are there. Would you think that even when that silence is there, people are engaged in something?

18:15
Veronika Becher
No, I think the awkward silence is like you're in a car sitting next to the other person. You can't escape the situation. And then you just have this moment of silence. The music is off. You don't know what to say. You're just in this space and you're thinking, oh, my gosh, what should I ask? And I think these are exactly the moments, I think when we're talking about how can you talk to a stranger? Situations like that will happen. And what I'm trying to kind of get to is you need to accept that you, even as a great communicator, good listener, good, like verbal communicator, but also how your body language is. What your body language is saying everything. You always will have these, like, kind of breaks in between conversations that you can't avoid and you shouldn't always fill them.

19:04
Veronika Becher
It's like, it's okay. And I think we're not trying to give you a guide to listeners. It was like, oh, this is what you do. So you can talk for the next 10 hours? Yes, it's possible. I'm telling you, it's possible to talk for 10 hours. I'm not saying you should do it every single day. Sometimes you just have to, like, let the other person brief too.

19:23
Abdullah Najjar
Right? Yeah, but, you know, that's something. I think it really does tie to who we are as people, our identity, and how were perhaps conditioned, socially conditioned to operate in such situations. So some people were maybe wired to only listen to the people who are older than you. Maybe people were raised that way. There are individuals who were raised that whatever someone you have to be maybe people pleaser. So whatever people say, I do not know, agree with them or, you know, you do not have to be a rebel. You do not have to do this or do that. So a lot of that stuff actually maybe has been instilled in us at an early age. And we've been shaped by these ideas. And maybe we can, you know, some people can stretch out of these things. They can.

20:27
Veronika Becher
I think that the saddest part about, like, social norms and cultures is the fact of missing Communication between your partner and you like, or certain conversations that are like taboo questions, like you should never talk about or ask these questions. A really big example that is maybe like, I don't know. Well, I don't think that my podcast is going to be canceled for it. But let's say like women's bodies and everything that surrounds with like sexual, like topics are just sometimes not addressed at all. So we have, we see like a lack of communication in these, like, regards because it's not okay or not normal to talk about it based on where you're from. And it's bad because I think sometimes clear communication can give you so much more. Like pleasure, happiness. I don't know.

21:26
Veronika Becher
Good, good conversation can, you know, help you a lot.

21:31
Abdullah Najjar
No, you're absolutely right. I think there are a lot of things. There's a stigma surrounding a lot of topics, for sure, across different cultures. Like, you know, there's. We may have mentioned this, perhaps off the record, were having a conversation, but there's so much. There's a particular type of behavior that occurs in my country that is normalized. It is very much normalized in schools. People don't talk about it and they choose not to talk about it because in that particular culture it is considered wrong. But everybody is engaging in that wrong behavior, although they will not address it. And that behavior is quite, you know, is witnessed across different places. They do not characterize it as, you know, a good. But it's still there. Everybody knows about it, but it's not addressed.

22:44
Veronika Becher
Would you like to give an example?

22:46
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah.

22:47
Veronika Becher
And like mention maybe the country. I mean, I don't know. Not everyone knows you.

22:52
Abdullah Najjar
I think, I think I can definitely give an example of that and I'll try to tie it to. And this is where we get into the territory of taboo subjects and we'll see how much we can unpack. That's fine. Yeah. So I'll try to give perhaps analogy first and then I'll tie it to the real example. So in my school system where I grew up, there's this element of segregation where after boys and girls reach a certain age, they go to different schools. And so they're put in perhaps an only boys school or an only girls school, depending on their gender. But private schools are different. You don't see that element of segregation. Those are, I think, considered co eds. Right. You have boys and girls studying together.

23:47
Abdullah Najjar
But from my experience, what I've witnessed in boys schools is this behavior that Maybe in the 1970s, the Psychological association of America would Consider deviant. But what this behavior is essentially sexual assault in a form that is. And I want to put quote marks here, quotation marks, in a form that is playful. So sexual assault between boys in a playful manner. And it is used as a way to. I think it's used for a variety of reasons, but it's just they do that to sort of kill time. It became more of like a fun game. It's like, you know, that for lack of a better, I guess, connection, there's a game we played, it's called uret, where I touch the person and if I touch them, I'm going to be running away.

24:47
Abdullah Najjar
And, you know, they have to, you know, run to reach me and they have touch me as well. But it's a very playful way where you touch someone on the shoulder, maybe in the hand or something like that. But what I'm describing is something entirely different. It is touching someone in organs or in physical places that are considered intimate or private. And these boys would do that to one another. They would play the ureth game, but in a form of sexual assault. But nobody would talk about these things.

25:25
Veronika Becher
And talking, especially since you didn't mention in a country that is, I would say, more conservative. And I feel like occasions like that happen even in private school settings or like in girls schools. Like, it feels like there was something about, oh, we're not talking about these things, but things are happening. Like, we are not addressing the elephant in the room. And that's an extreme matter. Right? What we're talking about here, that's something where we're talking like, I don't know, I just wouldn't think about it. But what I'm thinking about is like you're in a friend group and someone is not talking about something bothering them. Like this whole thing with passive aggressiveness, communication, where you just need to pick it up, you need to understand what is happening in the room, read the room properly. But you should never talk about it.

26:18
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah, it's just insane to me how, you know, it's not just every. I think a lot of different cultures, you do have these things that there's a social agreement, perhaps an unspoken social agreement that you shouldn't talk about these things. You know, And I've mentioned, obviously in a conversation that you and I had before about this thing that's called bacha bazi in Afghanistan that has existed for a long time where children are used as. Particularly boys are used as prostitutes by tribal elders. Right. And it is something that has been quite rampant for many Years, it witnessed sort of a downfall. I think if I'm not mistaken, when the Taliban came to power in the late 1900s, then after the US invasion, Taliban was toppled. And then that sort of behavior started to surface again.

27:20
Abdullah Najjar
Some people were engaged in it, but it was kept sort of under wraps. But a lot of people knew about it. A lot of people knew about it. And what pains me is that the people that. That obviously suffer as a result of this behavior to people on the receiving end, and that can trigger so much trauma down the line. You know, being, you know, being treated in that way in such a very obscene manner.

27:49
Veronika Becher
You know, speaking of, I feel like I'm going to lighten up the mood a little bit. I think. Well, what it shows us is communication is perceived in each country differently. In Japan, for instance, people don't talk about their personal, like, life. I know that in, for instance, Kyrgyzstan, you would never mention your family affairs or someone else because that's considered just not appropriate. You don't talk what happens at home, no matter how bad it is. You just don't address it with anyone. And then we have things like, I don't know, in Germany, you sit at dining table and people address religion, politics, and everything they want, while you would never see this here. Like, I don't know, there are just so many nuances. And I think if we're like, going forward, I realized that communication is important to a certain degree.

28:46
Veronika Becher
I think you cannot expect someone from a different country to completely understand someone else's behavior without communicating, even if you can make a guess and like, kind of read the room. I think if you don't have any experience with the culture in the country and like, the traditions, you will not really understand how to get along with the people in these, like, societies, circles. And something that reminds me of is it's a German short story called the House in the Dan Street. I'm like thinking I'm kind of blinking on the name of the author. But basically the whole story is something that stick out to me every single time when I think about communication. How people always talk about literature not being equivalent to leaving an impact on you because it's, like, outdated.

29:41
Veronika Becher
And then, you know how you have a teacher who's trying to tell the students, oh, no, but, you know, how can this one story relate to your real life? And I'm pretty sure it will. And honestly, this is one of these stories that I feel like it does relate to my life. And it's this whole thing of miscommunication and lack of communication. So the story goes as follow to kind of shorten up. We have a main protagonist, guy I think in his 30s, 40s who is married to his. This woman and they have this little house in the Dorothean street and he decides because the for business reasons to move to England. I think it's England. And it happens.

30:24
Veronika Becher
So it's written I think in 2010 and we had like the volcano erupting in Eastland that she like just recently, a couple of years plus minus. So they're using this whole metaphor with like the volcano erupting you. He can't go back to his wife and he's super upset in this really lonely, sad little apartment. And so he's going outside and it's raining all the time. So he's trying to like open up his umbrella and the wind is just coming up like literally like just getting into his way. He can't move past any street and it's just like such a like really sad, sad scene. And he's just seeing his own reflection with this umbrella that is fighting through the wind. And it's just like this whole setup and all he does is think about his wife who he's so like.

31:20
Veronika Becher
He's so upset about the situation that she's not there. So what happens? We have two calls where he calls his wife and all hears is a random voice in a bag where he's like she's laughing and he's like I think there's a guy with her. And so he's like oh no, is she cheating on me? And so this whole story is like representation of how they have a complete miscommunication because she's telling him everything is fine and I'm fine, but I don't want to move in with you into this really small apartment. And they're like Dorothyn street house is like falling apart. Like as a metaphor of their relationship completely falling apart. The wind is like a representation, like it's a full like metaphorical story.

32:09
Veronika Becher
And so I always imagine this guy walking down the street trying to open his umbrella but he can't anymore. And so what it actually means is like the whole time through the story I feel like I'm getting. I'm becoming like a storyteller, not really a good one. But he never. We like as a reader, you never know what the woman is actually thinking. We don't know what his wife is saying thinking. All we do is see a one sided conversation with one misunderstanding.

32:39
Abdullah Najjar
And.

32:39
Veronika Becher
And so for everyone who wanted to read the Story. I'm sorry, I'm gonna spoil it, but the ending of the whole thing goes back to him returning home. And the last line is, and the light goes off, where you don't know what actually happened. And you have, like, super, like, thousand different ideas of he actually killed her or something else happened. Their relationship completely fell apart. And so this story kind of reminds me of. I think if we don't communicate with people and if we don't take communication as something that is important in our life to display someone's emotions and kind of to work through misunderstandings that will occur because we. We try to make sense of things that are happening around us, but we can't. We can't all time understand the other person's perspective.

33:32
Veronika Becher
So if we don't do it, I know this is an extreme case, the light will go off, like, it will not be bright. And this whole umbrella situation is like, exactly how you feel like, you know, when something is like, inside just staring inside of you, and you're like, something is wrong. I don't like it. I need to address it, but I can't. And I don't know how to actually approach and mention to this one person. But these are the really important and difficult conversations that we have to have with people. And even approaching a stranger is the same way. I think when you are scared of the first step to just make the step to just talk to the person, to just go up there because you're so scared, you create this old image in your head of what could happen.

34:17
Veronika Becher
And then, you know, the volcano erupted. Okay, this is crazy.

34:22
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah, no, I think there's a lot there. And I think you have one. One thing we didn't. We didn't mention as well as people's reactions that we cannot foresee. Right. Because some people might be less inclined to want to engage with a stranger, even when the stranger is making a first attempt. And some people are maybe less trusting of strangers. So when someone approaches them, they would be quite reserved. And others are just not socially, you know, they're not very. They're not wired to, I guess, engage with someone that they do not know. And I think, you know, truly, I think in most of the situations where someone approached me to start a conversation, I made it my mission to be very engaged or engaging with that person.

35:35
Abdullah Najjar
And I think a lot of times there are many examples of that where someone makes a remark about perhaps the way I dress or about my hat or something like that. And I make it my mission to actually not just, you know, Say thank you, but also start a conversation with them. And I don't really say that. I don't return that, that compliment. I don't say, like, for example, if they said, nice hat, I don't say, oh, I like your sweater, you know, because I think it's not genuine. I don't do that. Instead, I try to have a conversation. And I don't think even the person who made that first attempt was expecting me to compliment them as well.

36:28
Abdullah Najjar
So I think my way has always been, like, if I was the person who's being approached, I put down everything I have that might be distraction, and I'm fully engaged with that person. And that's. That's been kind of my method.

36:47
Veronika Becher
What is if you're like, just imagine you're sitting on the other side of the receiving end and I'm approaching you. I'm like, oh, nice head. And so, okay, first of all, to kind of break down the whole situation, right? Let's just dive in, right? Why do we have to wait another 30 minutes to start the conversation? Actually, so we have. So the first thing that happens is, I think in your head, it's like, I was thinking about that today. It's this whole thing of going to the gym. That's an example, you know, how we don't want to go to the gym. And the fact that I realized if I would just go to the gym and whenever I'm standing in a locker room, I'm thinking, I actually could just work out now because I'm already in the gym. Like, what else?

37:34
Veronika Becher
You know, I could just go for a run, like literally run for 10 minutes and then leave. Right? So the issue is the first step to actually go to the gym. And I think conversations with strangers work the same way. It's this whole thing that happens in your head before you even approach someone. And it's this whole thing of you're scared to go there, you're dreading the conversation, you don't want to talk to this person. Well, let's hope you want to talk to the person, but you don't. Maybe you're really introverted. It scares you to talk to this person, Right? So you're thinking about all these different opportunities that you would have to talk to this person, but you never actually approach them, and then you regret it later on for not talking to this person, Right? Yes.

38:27
Veronika Becher
And I think the first step is, I don't know how you do it, but I don't think my go to thing and technique is literally to not Think about it. You can think about later or to have this mindset that I will call it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter means if you start understanding how many people you have around you, it doesn't matter if this is going to be the worst conversation of your life, because all that will happen to you is it's going to be awkward. You're both going to be awkward. You don't want to talk to each other, you just leave. Maybe some person misunderstands you, okay? But you probably, I don't know, most likely not going to see the person again. Maybe you will see this person again, but in the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Okay?

39:17
Veronika Becher
If they said, I don't want to talk to you, well, they told you that it's okay. You tried. It's this whole mindset game of it doesn't matter. You just. If you want to talk to this person, just go for it.

39:30
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah, that's. That's, that's very true. I think I should learn to think less about the. The pre conversation process. You know, I think. I think about it. I do. And there are instances where I just. I just did it.

39:56
Veronika Becher
I remember I just did it. Think and do.

40:01
Abdullah Najjar
That's our motto.

40:03
Veronika Becher
And it's like, Veronica could do and think like Lucy. That's what I do.

40:07
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah. Don't think, do. You know, But I remember that time when I was. Yeah, I was in a coffee shop and I was reading a book, and I could see that this one gentleman was sort of looking at me. He was on the side, on the table. That was on my. I think on my left or right. I forgot which direction it was. Doesn't matter. But in any case, there were multiple. I think there were multiple instances where he would just look at me and we would exchange eye contact. And then, you know, this is how you start dating. Right. I'm sorry.

41:00
Veronika Becher
I'm sorry. I was like. I was like, you know, like, if I would just listen to it's like, oh, yeah. He looked straight into my eyes and we locked eyes and we knew this is the one.

41:11
Abdullah Najjar
Right? That's how you start dating.

41:14
Veronika Becher
This is how. Oh, my gosh. You know, according to some, like, cultures, this is how you already, like, are married.

41:21
Abdullah Najjar
You are.

41:21
Veronika Becher
You know what I mean?

41:24
Abdullah Najjar
She looked at me. I'm married to her now.

41:29
Veronika Becher
Oh, my gosh, this is bad. It's like. And then the story continued. I returned to the same spot to see this one gentleman who was so mysterious looking at me. And we've been running into each other. Like destiny was, like it was meant were soulmates instead of a romance novel type thing. Oh my gosh.

41:49
Abdullah Najjar
But no, seriously, he looked up, he looked at me a couple of times. And then when I finished reading my book and I was about to leave, I actually approached that person and I said, I think your face is familiar, you know, And I feel like, you.

42:01
Veronika Becher
Know me, I'm your sucker.

42:04
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah, no, that's really exactly what happened. And then I didn't know. I just, I didn't know what it is exactly that was going on. So I just approached a person, we had a short conversation, and funny enough, the next thing I know is that we became good friends. And nowadays if I were to show up to this coffee shop, sometimes I would see him there and I would sit down, have a conversation, and when I don't have a place to sit, I would just join him and we have good conversations. It's a really interesting occurrence.

42:41
Veronika Becher
I think the second thing is regarding, you know, having a nice coffee chat with some stranger is, you know, can you explain to us how did you start the first conversation with him?

42:56
Abdullah Najjar
How did I start the first conversation? Oh, I just approached him, shook his hand and I said, you're. I feel like your face is familiar, but I think you know me. Like, that's what I said. And the person I think replied, oh, I don't think we have met before. And I was like, well, let me introduce myself. I'm, you know, I'm Abdullah. I do this, that and the other thing. And he did the same. And we had a short conversation. Was it on purpose why I approached him?

43:31
Veronika Becher
No. Was it on purpose why you asked the question the way you did that you pretended like you know the person, but you don't.

43:37
Abdullah Najjar
Right? Yeah, that was on purpose.

43:39
Veronika Becher
This is really interesting because I feel like I've done this before too, but I also actually sometimes don't know if I'm the person. This is bad. Like, sometimes I'm like, do I know this person? Like, I actually don't know. Did we take a class together? Like, when did I meet this person? And it happened to me once, like literally to a person that I approached in Tali. And I'm like, do we know each other? Because I'm sure, like we've met somewhere, but I don't know where. Yeah, And I think it can be a technique. I'm not saying you should lie the whole time to the other person. Be like, oh, you know, I know you from high school, Went to the same. No, I'm. I think it can be a nice icebreaker. And so that's what I'm trying to get to.

44:20
Veronika Becher
I think to start a conversation, you need to have, like, a good question or remark how to, like, get into it. And I'm not saying to tell someone, like, a funny joke that you think it's really good. Like, you know, the joke from Pulp Fiction, the tomatoes, walking down the street, talking to his little daughter, whatever it was, and then says ketchup was like, literally the answer. But basically, yeah, watch a movie if you want to have the full. Like, Abdullah was the only person that ever laughed to this joke. And he just could stop. For the next 10 minutes, I'm sitting here. This is like, such a dad joke.

45:00
Abdullah Najjar
That's what I told you.

45:02
Veronika Becher
And he's like, it's a dad joke. Dad jokes are funny. I'm like, you're the first person to say that the dad joke is funny, because this is, like, there's a reason why they call dad jokes.

45:12
Abdullah Najjar
Well, going back to what you were saying about, like, approaching a person and making a remark, I once did. Gosh, one of many instances, I think there's. You and I have a lot to talk about these things. But something that happened, I think, a couple of weeks ago in a coffee shop, actually, and I saw a young lady who was wearing something that was like a very nice skirt and sophisticated sweater and a necklace that was quite elegant. And then, like, a headpiece that sort of, like, you know, that. That sort of image in. If I were to ask someone, hey, conjure up an image in your mind of a woman who is doing agricultural work and has, like, a headpiece on. Yeah, a piece of cloth. It's like a piece of cloth that.

46:04
Veronika Becher
Is like a bandana that you just put on your head.

46:07
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah. But like a very elegant one. And so that person was wearing a skirt, that bandana sweater, and then like a particular necklace. And I really like that style. I said, you know, your style really suits you. And she said, thank you. And then I asked if that person was doing fashion design or whatnot. And funny enough, the person wasn't doing fashion design or anything like that. They were doing criminology. So I was like, you know, I think if you really are into fashion, I think you might like my scarf, which is very strange for me to say. So I was like, it's on the other side of this coffee shop. Would it be okay for me to bring it and you can have a look at it? And sure enough, I did.

46:58
Abdullah Najjar
I brought back the scarf, and she had a look at it. And then the funniest thing happened was she was like, I'm actually crocheting something right now, and that scarf was crocheted. So she pulled something out of her bag and she showed me what she was crocheting and what she's planning to do with this and what she's. You know, and that was it. There was nothing beyond. Sometimes these encounters or these conversations serve one particular purpose. And that purpose is just that conversation, nothing beyond that, nothing more. And I've had so many of those before, and oftentimes they might lead to something more. Maybe another conversation, maybe another get together. You know what I mean? But my. I guess my desire was, you know, just. The purpose was just that.

47:53
Abdullah Najjar
And it's just funny because, you know, I think sometimes you don't really have to go beyond that. I think that purpose was served, the conversation was had or was. I think that's. I don't know if that's the right word of saying it, but the conversation was experienced, the encounter was fulfilling, and that was it. And I've had that happen to me many times. It's like I don't have a desire to take it to the next level and have more conversations with that person. And sometimes I do. I don't think it should be the case that every person that we may have enjoyed having a conversation with or every person that we approached and realized was interesting.

48:37
Abdullah Najjar
I don't think it should be the case that person is bound to be in our lives for the next couple of weeks or next couple of months or should be integrated in our circle.

48:48
Veronika Becher
I was like, thinking when you were talking about fashion, and I'm like, this is so funny because I literally have another business major girl sitting in my class, and she always dresses so well. I'm. Do you hear really often that people mistake you for being a fashion major? And she's like, yes. And I think there's something about. You know, I know this has nothing to do with conversations by itself, but I think the assumption of, oh, you're probably this major, or this is where you're from, or this is what your culture is. Oh, my gosh. These are like. Actually, when you were starting this conversation, the way you were explaining it, what happened with the. A girl or lady?

49:28
Veronika Becher
I don't know how old the person was, you know, in the coffee shop, I was like, oh, no, I hope this goes well, because I thought it's not gonna go well. And the reason for that is two things. First, when you said, this style suits you well, it can go either direction, right? Someone can see it as, oh, this is a compliment, or, do I look so strange that this looks good on me? Like, you know what I mean? That was my thought. So if someone would tell me, like, oh, you look this way, And I'm like, what does that mean? It suits you well that you actually dress differently than everyone else. Like, I don't know if that's a good thing. And then the other thing is, with fashion, I think it's an assumption we make. Right?

50:12
Veronika Becher
And it also depends on the person that you have in front of you if they okay with you making this type of assumption. Because you could offend someone by asking them, oh, are you a fashion major? Or, I don't know, do you. Are you from this country? Because sometimes people. I actually have a story.

50:37
Abdullah Najjar
Oh, I have another.

50:38
Veronika Becher
It's a shame on me. Okay, short story. I've been reading this one Korean book that is translated into English, and it's actually also about bookstores and coffee shops. And it's such a nice book. I love it. But the interesting thing is the girl that is in my group project, she asked me, oh, isn't this a Korean book? And I was like, yeah. And so to give you a background, she's Asian. Okay. But that's like a maybe. I don't know. It feels like a generalization. Right. And I was aware that she's. She probably is not Korean based on how she looks was, again, an assumption. Right. But also just based on, like, the things that I understood about heritage and background and so on. But the thing is, what I said was, oh, do you speak Korean?

51:30
Veronika Becher
And she looked at me and she was like, no, I'm Chinese. And I was like, no, do you speak Korean? So my question, the way I approached my first conversation with this girl was completely wrong. Like, I actually made the biggest mistake, probably because what I meant is if she speaks a language. And the interesting thing is that I realized that people here, specifically in the United States, could get off it if you make an assumption of the heritage depending on the language they're speaking. But I think something I realized, though, what I actually was trying to convey is maybe she knows more than just two languages. Maybe speaking a language doesn't always say that's your actual background. It's just, especially with Asian languages, people always like, oh, you made an assumption that I speak Chinese because I look Asian.

52:17
Veronika Becher
No, what I'm trying to say is, you Asked me because you knew that this book was translated from Korean. And then you were. I'm like, oh, do you actually understand Korean? Because of the title and, like, the way it's, like, set up. And so I kind of. She. I think she didn't get offended, but it was kind of a thing of, oh, you don't know what you're talking about. You just, like, told me that I look like Korean, but I'm actually Chinese. And I'm just sitting there like, oh, my gosh. I just was hoping that you would know that, oh, this is, you know, that's maybe a language you're speaking. And maybe a second point there was, like, taking note on is I think if you talk about conversations, you need to understand the context you're in.

52:59
Veronika Becher
You mention it and you're like, oh, I'm in a coffee shop, and this is how I approach the person. So I think, first of all, step number one, you're thinking about not thinking or you're thinking about maybe what is like an icebreaker. I could tell this person to approach them. You have to make the first step and actually go to this person. So that's like going to the gym. But then another side note is understand the context you're in. So your next step, how you approach a person depends on the context. If I'm trying to approach a business, I don't know, business partner or someone who is, like, at a fair, you will probably approach them differently because it's a professional background than someone on the street and so on. So understand the context that you're in.

53:47
Veronika Becher
It's really important because it will define how you approach someone in what conversations you start. Like, you should not assume where they from and then make it, oh, my gosh, we had a whole conversation about that. I'm, like, talking so much on this podcast episode. But we had a huge debate about that. How people assume in the first time, like, they. Okay, I think there's one big mistake that you should not do. When you communicate to someone that you just met, especially when you just met this person, no matter if it's something that you have a purpose behind that you want to date them, you want to be friends with, or just want to have a regular conversation, you will forget and never, ever think about, or maybe you will not forget, but you will never talk to this person again.

54:34
Veronika Becher
And it's this whole thing of not combining your perceptions and things that you associate with the person's background as your first icebreaker. What I mean by that, when you see someone Example, and you're like, oh, she's German. Let's make a Hitler joke that I just understand. Willie Waldog humor. I think it's fantastic if you have a sense of humor like that. And I think I'll be not offended, but I think someone else might be. Or you're like, oh, you have Russian heritage. Let's talk about what is your opinion, like, third question that you ever get in your conversation, what's your opinion about the Russian Ukraine war? And then I'm sitting there like, please don't do that to me because I'm not here to have this conversation with you, especially not such a controversial one.

55:25
Veronika Becher
I understand you want to know my opinion because I have a certain background. But I think that's not how you start conversations. Conversations. You can combine things like you're sitting in the same classroom together and you're taking the same class. An icebreaker could be something class related. It could be location related. You can point out, do you like this coffee? Or what would you recommend? Like, things that are light topics that would not offend you in any way. And you don't always have to combine it with this, like, association you have with the person's background.

56:01
Abdullah Najjar
Oh, absolutely. I think. And here we talk about, like, how not to do it right. Failed attempts. I can talk about so many of these things where I can even give you an example for my. From my end where I actually did had the. Probably one of the worst starts to a conversation, but then it turned out to be quite well and you know, it was just bad in the beginning. So I'm really embarrassed to share this story, but it happened at a conference, actually. So I approached this person during the hour where we just, you know, they're in, I think they call it the happy hour.

56:49
Abdullah Najjar
So after the conference was over and you know, we're just chilling, we're relaxing, you have a couple of drinks and then you move into the next room where you have like a very sort of, you know, fancy dinner. So I approached this person. The person is Latin American. It was revealed during the conference where that person was from. So I approached that person. And first thing, maybe the second thing I mentioned was the story of Manuel Noriega, who was a famous asset the CIA. And then at some point of his life, he, I guess, became a drug dealer. And I think he was also under the CIA payroll at the time. But he was a famous controversial figure who did a lot of messed up things. He was obviously drug dealer, drug trafficker.

57:50
Abdullah Najjar
But that person I think Noriega came from, I think Nicaragua or Panama. I forgot which country it was. And that person that I met is from, to my knowledge at the time, or unbeknownst to me, was that person was from the same country as Manuel Noriega. So I think the first thing or the second thing I mentioned to that person was the story of this drug dealer in the sense that I mentioned that story. And I was like, that's the only thing I know about the country. And that was a very poor attempt of trying to start, you know, conversation or something along that line, those lines. But anyways, it was. It was actually well received. It was well received. And the person ended up telling me that Manuel Noriega wasn't from where. Wasn't from my country, he was from a different country.

58:58
Abdullah Najjar
And then after he corrected me and all of that, we ended up having a really nice conversation about soccer. And it was so strange how we sort of transition from one thing to another. But in retrospect, when I looked back, I was like, that was probably my worst ever start to a car, to a conversation. It just. It just wasn't really. But maybe because my. My demeanor or my. The way I brought it up was sort of just not combative or anything like that. It was not threatening, just very calm. And so that, you know, the person took it well, but as content, you know, content wise, it wasn't. The best way to start would be similar akin to what you were saying about, like, oh, the third question was about Russia and Ukraine.

59:49
Abdullah Najjar
It's like, for me, it's like if someone were to start a conversation with me, second or third. Third or first thing they bring up is, oh, your country killed our American ambassador, that would be very poorly. Probably would be poorly received by me, because first off, it's not my country, it's people in my country. Surely we sometimes associate a particular demographic to the entire majority, to the whole people. And that can be, you know, that can be so misleading, obviously. But we as human beings sometimes do that. You know, we associate a small demographic of people and we use that demographic as representation of the entire population or even the government, you know. And so I'm sure you have a lot to say about that. But then I would love to also mention friendships that I formed and why they were successful, you know.

01:00:51
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah, okay. Well, actually, I mentioned a story maybe of someone that I'm very close with and I get along with him quite well. And strangely enough, you know, if someone were to look at it from a very. From the outside, they'd be amazed that him and I would be that close. Before I mention that story, I want to mention a story of someone else that I might not be as close to him as this person, but someone who didn't even think that he would be friends with me. And it's a former guest of mine. He was a retired CIA officer who worked on nuclear weapons proliferation. And his network, or the network that he destabilized or perhaps destroyed, I think the right word is sort of destroy.

01:01:46
Abdullah Najjar
That network had something to do with the ruler of my country, who used to be the rule of my country, Muammar Gaddafi. So the CIA officer's mission that he worked on for 10 years ultimately led to destroying sort of a nuclear proliferation network that my dictator had deep ties to. But in any case, I remember it was over the summer, I was in the car with this person, and he. Jim. Jim Lawler is his name. He told me, it's funny that I've worked on this mission for, like, 10 years of my life, and I never thought that I would actually form a friendship with someone from that country.

01:02:41
Abdullah Najjar
And so it was interesting for me to hear that from him because I myself didn't think that I would also form a connection with someone who worked on such a mission, even though obviously the government at the time or even the current government doesn't represent perhaps my views or where I stand on a variety of issues. But the point is, it's like, sometimes we never think that we would form connections or friendships with people from a particular culture or background because of maybe the assumptions that we have or the ideas that we have about that person. And I think the perfect recipe to forming friendships or connections with those people that we might have a particular image of, the perfect way to start it is to remove that image and just talk to them as people.

01:03:31
Abdullah Najjar
And this is where I sort of consider this to be a window to telling you about the story of the friend who I became very close with. But people maybe from the outside would be quite amazed that we are that close. And that friend is a retired military officer who spent 20 years in the Air Force, and he spent many of his years abroad working on different missions here and there and working on a mission that contributed to NATO's involvement in Libya in 2011, which is where I'm from, Libya. So this person I've been trying to understand, I've been trying to rationalize our emotions toward one another as friends, right? I've been trying to rationalize these emotions into logical statements, like, I'M trying to understand why are we actually friends and why do we get along? And it's.

01:04:28
Abdullah Najjar
And I was inspired by something you mentioned a couple of days ago. Right. Like, why do I get along with this person? Like, what is it? Right. Sometimes I don't think. Sometimes I think it's. It's like love. Like it's funny for me to say it, but like we never really rationalize why we are in love with that person. We can say, oh, they've got a good sense of humor. You know, they are good communicators. They have this, they have that. But I think there's a certain set of emotions that just cannot be captured through logical statements. Like you just. It's hard to describe, you know, and maybe you have something to say about that. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

01:05:09
Abdullah Najjar
But going back to what I was saying, I was trying to really understand why I get along with this person and why am I really friends with him. And it's weird, like you said, or like a couple days ago, it's weird for someone to think about that, to go to that level and try to analyze things. Right. But I did. And I think one of the things I realized is that we became good friends because we never looked at. Viewed one another exclusively through the lens of where we came from.

01:05:43
Veronika Becher
Like as a product of your origin.

01:05:45
Abdullah Najjar
Right, right. We never did that. Like were genuinely curious in one another. We had conversations with one another. We've had so many conversations. I should, I should add, but we never viewed ourselves or each other through that lens of where we came from. Like, that was never a deal breaker. We were genuinely curious. We were genuinely interested in one another. We've. We realized that we had so much in common. We realized that we're humans at the end of the day and we still talk about our backgrounds for sure, but that was never a deal breaker.

01:06:20
Veronika Becher
An example, something that happened to me today, actually, I discovered that a friend of mine who's a really good friend of mine, I'm not gonna drop the names, was in a really bad relationship. And the way he was treating his ex girlfriend was actually really inappropriate in a way. But it wasn't like, where it's crossing the line of like inappropriate in a way of I abuse her. But rather it was just their dynamic was really unhealthy and he would blame her a lot on like certain things. And I realized the interesting thing is I'm really good friends of this person, but I think a relationship is something different. And I still will view the person the same way as I do, even though I know the knowledge of their relationship not working out because of him actually acting a certain way.

01:07:12
Veronika Becher
And I think there are certain like rules that you like, I would follow. Like, like I said, if the person would abuse the other person, I think I wouldn't be friends. But I think there's something about thousand rumors that could spread from people's perceptions about one another. And if someone tells me, look, I would not be friends with this person because he behaves this way, I will look at the person the same way because there's something that I've learned for myself and I establish as a value and it's evaluating people based on my own experiences. First I realized that the same thing here. If someone will tell you, oh, this officer is a bad person, I think what makes it still a great friendship is that you still took the time to get to know the persone one in act. Yes.

01:08:06
Veronika Becher
And actually explored their view on the world. I have a friend, another friend, who my best friend didn't like at all. And the reason for that is that we actually have completely opposite word views. He's a really conservative man, really religious guy, super like, super traditional in a lot of regards. And especially a woman in business. You're like the opposite. You're kind of like questioning if that's what you should do according to his views. But the interesting thing is he never disrespected me. Like, he never made me feel bad about who I am and I never had a bad conversation with this person. Even though I would never say that we agree on our world views.

01:08:51
Veronika Becher
What I'm saying by that is I think if you can enter in a space with an open mindedness and understand it's okay to make mistakes, you can be the greatest communicator on earth and still make the same mistakes. You can still be bad and talking to someone and approaching a conversation, but you can still get a lot of out of the conversation. Even though you might disagree with them. I think it helps a lot. And then the other thing that I think we should definitely mention as a way of communicating is no matter who's listening to this, it's not about you approaching someone, it's someone else approaching you. And you've mentioned that you're like, oh, someone comments on my like style, this is how I react.

01:09:41
Veronika Becher
And I think that's the other part, the other side of the coin that we definitely have to address here. And it's this whole thing of if someone approaches you and ask you something. Unless something that is really inappropriately offending, you could ask them a question. What do you mean? Can you elaborate on it? Can you explain what you were just saying? Because there are moments when people are really mean and they actually are disrespectful. And I'm not saying that they are not, but sometimes we could misunderstand each other or sometimes this person's not even speaking English as their first language and they just wrongly phrased a sentence and that's why it sounded like something, I don't know, the person just said that you look ugly. I don't know. Like there are a lot of things that could happen, right?

01:10:26
Veronika Becher
So I would say ask the question and be like, hey, what do you mean by that? To just clarify that you didn't misunderstand the person and then the person actually meant what they said. The other thing is understand that if someone has the courage to approach you in any social setting that it's difficult for them. For some people it's easier than for others. But also if they make a mistake and make it awkward between you two, it's a two way street. It's not a one way thing, it's not someone approaching you and that's it. The other person can contribute to the conversation to make it better. And based on how the person reacts, if they are saying just yes and no and that's all that happens, well then you know, the person might not be interested in a conversation.

01:11:17
Veronika Becher
So let it be after a while. Don't push it. If they don't want to talk to you, don't talk to them. But if they actually make the effort in replying, in the way they reply, it helps you actually create a better conversation. So I think it's a receiving, it's a like the way you're talking to someone, it's a body language thing. You should turn around with your body. Oh my gosh. Something that I think is really disrespectful when I, I talk to someone and the person is on their phone listening to music, not caring about what I'm saying and not even their body language is not even turned towards me.

01:11:57
Abdullah Najjar
That is just so annoying.

01:11:59
Veronika Becher
It's not. I think it's just really disrespectful because it's this whole thing of I actually don't care that you're standing next to me and I'm just building up a wall. Even though they maybe don't try to communicate that but try to make an effort in caring what the Other person just told you. Right. And maybe like, last one, speaking of friendships that you would never expect to happen. That's the thing, I think a lot, like, I could count down, like, so many of my closest friends that I actually didn't want to be friends with. Or maybe I shouldn't say that I didn't want to, but rather I didn't plan on being friends with them.

01:12:44
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah.

01:12:45
Veronika Becher
Like, how many times do you have the situation where it's like, I actually didn't like this person at first, but we end up getting along.

01:12:51
Abdullah Najjar
Oh, it happens so many times.

01:12:53
Veronika Becher
Or I actually thought this person is super rude, but then for some reason it just clicked.

01:12:57
Abdullah Najjar
Right.

01:12:59
Veronika Becher
It happens all the time. Right. Even in relationships, even in friendships. Any connections where you like. Actually, I quite start to understand the person's perspective. And, you know, there's something about, like, the beauty of actually not agreeing on things and understanding that there's someone who has a different perspective.

01:13:17
Abdullah Najjar
Oh, yeah, that's. That's the thing about, like, bring the example again with me and Jason, this airport Air Force vet. We don't agree on a lot of things, but every time were together, we thoroughly enjoy each other's company. As far as I know, we didn't care about titles. We didn't care about what we did, professionally speaking, obviously, or stuff we perhaps achieved or things of that nature. These things pop up in a conversation, but these are not the things that sort of perhaps attracted us to one another. At first we knew a fair bit about one another, but it seems like so many other things were more important to us than these. These elements of a background that shape who we are today and just very sometimes small things that connect us.

01:14:35
Abdullah Najjar
And obviously there are big things that connect us, but I never thought that it's these ideas that we have in mind. It's like, oh, this category of people maybe would not be so willing or forthcoming to engage with me. Or I just can't find it in me to engage with this person because I just don't like this thing they do or this other thing, or. It's just you wouldn't know until you experience something. Sometimes you just have to experience it to know.

01:15:10
Veronika Becher
When you were talking about that, something just popped up and I was like, this is bad. Speaking of being a clear and concise communicator, you just completely failed on that part, Veronica. And I was thinking completely a little bit off topic, not taking your opinion into account or, like, your story. It's something my best friend told me once is the rule of three, I don't know if you heard of it. If you ever approach someone or like, you have a conversation, a conflict, anything you want to talk about, you can use the rule of three. And it's, you mention only three things, meaning you don't like the way your conversation is going on your friendship, you misunderstand each other. A person cannot take in a ton of information at the same time.

01:16:07
Veronika Becher
So what you should do, accordingly to scientists is to follow the rule of three, mentioning three aspects that you want to address in the conversation to make it a good conversation. So if you, even if you disagree, like you said, you disagree sometimes with the people that you're friends with and you still get along with them. I think when you first approach someone, it's like, find three things you want to talk about. If you want to think about what you want to talk about and address them like, oh, I think we don't see each other enough. I think we should talk more about our problems. I think we should, whatever it is, the third thing and only. And leave it at the three things. Don't go over three things because it's easier to address and digest it. It's like, it's almost.

01:17:01
Veronika Becher
It's just simplified the way you communicate as a person. So when you approach someone you like, if you don't want it to be whole long conversation, you can just talk about three things and that's it. Or build up on the things that you talked about.

01:17:18
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah, that's. Never thought about that before. Focusing only on three things.

01:17:28
Veronika Becher
Yeah, it's like, it's good for conflict resolutions, something that people use to, like, kind of get through something that is really complex and just break it down to three things. And like, I just address three things and that's it for now.

01:17:48
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah. And that. And is there an expectation that the person might also have something to address as well?

01:18:00
Veronika Becher
Could be, but I think it's just when you approach someone and you're like, I actually want to talk about something. So if we're talking about the communication and how to approach a stranger on the street, it's like, think about, okay, what is the first thing you can do? It's the body language. It's you communicate clearly or you ask questions and you listen to what the other person saying. And the amount of topics you might cover in this short conversation should not exceed three topics because I think it will be maybe too much for the first time. So it's like an example. Let's go back to the coffee shop lady you mentioned. I Like your style, it suits you well. You talked about fashion and kind of style. And then the second thing was, oh, what are you actually, like maybe studying or like whatever.

01:18:53
Veronika Becher
Was the question major third question. Oh, you like crocheting, why do you like it? Type of thing? That's it. It was just a simple 3, 3 topic conversation. It wasn't more than that. And that's it. It's. This is, I think, why people even say, oh, the. The best icebreaker that people use nowadays that I feel like is sometimes really boring, to be fair. It's this whole thing of what's your major? What's your name and where do you live or where you from? Or like, something like that. Yeah.

01:19:26
Abdullah Najjar
And the where you're from question is really, it can come from a good place. It can. But if it's the first or second question you ask a person, it just re. Sort of establishes this idea of othering the. The party on the receiving end. So it's sort of like creating a distance, you know, trying to. Again, that question is a reminder that you are not from here and another reminder that you're sort of different.

01:20:07
Veronika Becher
You know, this is funny. I never thought this way. It was more like a, you know, this joke that people sometimes use is like, oh, I'm so sick of meeting another, like, relationship partner. Because every single time I have to start over with my life story. The easy way would be just sending them a PDF, right? And then, oh, my gosh. And I was thinking, this is how I feel when people ask me, oh, you're from Germany. And then I'm like, read, please, paragraph number one. If you. If your question concerns where I'm from and why I have the specific accent, read this one paragraph. Why I lived in South Dakota. If you ask me why and when did I live in South Dakota, please read this part of my, like, book that I've written somewhere.

01:20:51
Veronika Becher
And then the next question that probably follows is like, how is Germany? What's the difference between Germany and the United States? What is better? What do I like more? Where do I live? How long am I an exchange student? Do a study in schema? Do I even want to. Do I even want to stay here? What happens after I graduate? Oh, did I actually like, Do I like people? Do I think they dump? No, maybe I don't. And then also this whole thing. And then we go into this dog humor side of the whole thing. So, like, what is your opinion on Hitler? And then so basically I have, yes, dear listeners, I created a Q and A session if you ever want to, maybe I create a whole file with all questions about my life in one PDF file. No, but seriously.

01:21:36
Veronika Becher
And I. I think I remember when I first started studying in South Dakota, I could literally, like, the first thing I've learned to perfectly say in English was probably my introduction where I'm from and why I'm here. I'm foreign Exchange student in 10th grade, and right now I'm studying here, living with this host family in South Dakota. It was like a thing that I was like, literally, like telling multiple times a day the same story. Oh, my God.

01:22:01
Abdullah Najjar
It's like a robot type thing. The thing, like, I really avoid. One of the questions I avoid is that you know where you're from. Because I know. I know it will pop up, and it will pop up naturally from the person, he or herself. I don't have to bring it up. You know, if I notice an accent, I won't bring it up. You know, I just want to talk to the person, and I'm sure the person will bring it up. I just don't want to, you know, make them feel like they are not from here or remind them again that they are a stranger in no man's land.

01:22:38
Veronika Becher
I mean, my dark humor is just hitting completely in all regards. Like, my introductions are literally. You probably heard my accent. I'm German, and I literally get it out of the way. I think this is how I handle it. I literally just mentioned in the first three sentences. And then people react differently. They're like, I've heard it. Oh, I've heard your accent. Yes, you do. You're German. Yes, yes. Or like, oh, I didn't really think about it much, you know, And I don't know if it's good because it's like pointing to your weaknesses in the first conversation that you ever have with this person and you point it out to their face. Oh, yes, I'm German. I'm aware of being an international. But honestly, I'm aware of being an international. No, but it's so true.

01:23:22
Veronika Becher
But I think the only reason why I do it is to kind of avoid the conversation because I'm the one steering a conversation then about Germany. So what I don't let people. This feels so mean. I don't let them ask about Germany. I'm the one bringing it up. And then, and then if they do, I. I answer the way it is. Like, you know, don't get offended or don't be happy or sad. I don't know. It's just the way it is. I. I just say, yes, I am German. I know, but let's continue talking about the other thing that I'm curious more than talking about my own story and how I'm German.

01:23:59
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah, no, I see how that can be a good starting point, because I think you. I love that you said it like you steered a conversation you try to maybe avoid or you choose to have them talk about anything other than Hitler. If they're gonna be bringing that up as, like, a thing. Third thing. You know, like a third. Oh, so, you know, World War II or, oh, Russia, Ukraine. You know, you steer it away from that to avoid the awkwardness. Because some people just. They just. That's the first thing that pops in their mind. You know what I mean?

01:24:39
Veronika Becher
What I don't understand if it's a lack of knowledge. Okay, this is really bad. I should not say that, because I literally have certain countries where I'm like, I don't know what your country looks like. It happens, right? I'm not assuming that you're literally having a camel at home. We had this conversation. If you never heard the other. After episodes, you probably know what's happening. But honestly. Yes. We both miss his camo. Oh, my goodness.

01:25:05
Abdullah Najjar
Probably died by them.

01:25:07
Veronika Becher
No, they. They ate it for Thanksgiving.

01:25:12
Abdullah Najjar
The Libyan Virgin of Thanksgiving. Oh, my goodness. Well, you know, we also have indigenous people in our land. We should give them thanks.

01:25:26
Veronika Becher
Yes, but Thanksgiving is not a happy, actually story. Everyone just, for some reason, celebrates it. Like, some crazy, Like, I don't know.

01:25:34
Abdullah Najjar
But you know what's funnier? When I was talking to a few students here who are Native Americans, they were like, to tell you the truth, man, I'm tired of having to bring that conversation over dinner. I want to eat my food during Thanksgiving. If you want to know stuff, go to Google.

01:25:49
Veronika Becher
No, that's true, too. Like, it's kind of like a reminder in your face every single time, right?

01:25:54
Abdullah Najjar
It's reminding you again and again of this stuff. Like the international. The element I was mentioning, like, where are you from? Gosh. It's like, why do you have to.

01:26:04
Veronika Becher
But also makes sense because it can be a good, like, icebreaker to start the conversation to ask, oh, where are you from? I think it's a really simple question to ask, so I don't blame people, you know, doing that. And maybe you encounter people that have never been outside the United States. They've never met an international student. I've experienced that. And I was like, whoa, true. And, like, the whole room was like, where are you from? What is Germany. But the thing is, what I meant by. I don't know if it's a lack of education or if it's, I don't know, just people just being super desensitized towards certain topics. But I don't know, when I'm like approaching an American, my first question is not, oh, let's talk about slavery.

01:26:52
Veronika Becher
Oh, what is your opinion on this one president who's right now, like, ruling this country? Wait a minute, what happened again? Who did you colonize in what year? No, wait, you invaded what country again? Are we talking about the crisis? Like the bankruptcy and everything? Capitalism. Oh, the wal. That's a fantastic.

01:27:16
Abdullah Najjar
That's a conversation starter. How not to start it.

01:27:21
Veronika Becher
You're like, what. What do you think about the wall? You know, I mean, like, my, the wall next to you. I'm not talking about the wall, but.

01:27:27
Abdullah Najjar
But the Great Wall of China. That's what I'm talking about. Oh, my gosh, the Berlin Wall. What do you think of that?

01:27:36
Veronika Becher
Honestly? Honestly, it's really interesting, the Berlin Wall. I mean, the points that are still standing have actually really nice decorations and not complaining.

01:27:47
Abdullah Najjar
You gotta guide me. You gotta guide me today. You gotta be my tour guide.

01:27:51
Veronika Becher
Oh, my gosh, you're gonna be the wall. You're just gonna stand in between. No, but it's just like, I feel like maybe, I don't know, maybe it comes with like a sense of like, oh, you just don't ask that because people ask you that. But for some reason, I don't know, people just like to bring up certain conversations and it's the first question they ask and they think it's funny enough in. The worst is, the worst is for me, when they already have an opinion about it, and then they ask you a controversial question to only hear their opinion confirmed. And if you actually against their opinion, they're like, oh, I don't talk to you anymore.

01:28:30
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah, that's just. Yeah, some people, honestly, that's one thing I, I don't understand about generally. Even here, you know, when people just start talking about. Especially like with either Trump or Joe Biden, like, I understand that you might have strong opinions about Trump or even about Biden and say you're a Biden supporter. And I say that to all the Americans that are listening to this. If someone else says that they're maybe a Trump supporter, potentially, you know, we're talking about like, what, 80, maybe million people. 80 billion Americans. Imagine. Just. And I've witnessed that a lot. It's like, if you're a Trump supporter, I'm unfollowing you. I'm not talking to you. You're nothing to me. I'm like, that is. Why is that right?

01:29:26
Abdullah Najjar
You know, why can we discriminate against such people that might have maybe not the best opinion out there, but are not maybe necessarily harming others? Right. They're not inflicting harm or suffering on others. Why is it right for us to ostracize or just, you know, discriminate against those people? But we wouldn't perhaps do that to another demographic. And I just think if we, you know, if we are really driven by moral principles and what's right and what's wrong and we don't want, you know, we're against discrimination, negative discrimination, against this sort of. Against racism or against xenophobia, if you, if one is truly against these things. And again, like, I'm not American. I'm not, I'm not in support of either. Like, I don't even qualify. But if someone is treating others in that way, I just think that you just dehumanize these individuals.

01:30:24
Abdullah Najjar
You know, they might have the wrong opinion, they might not know. Right. Just give them maybe the benefit of the doubt. But for us to really just say, oh, you should unfollow me, I'm not talking to you anymore. I just think that's a little too harsh. How about you talk to them and maybe change their mind? You know what I'm saying?

01:30:41
Veronika Becher
I think it's. Yeah, but it also depends on the topic. Right. That we're talking about. There's certain things that I've. If I would hear someone say, I think I would not like to be friends with them because of what they said. But I think political standpoints, especially in a country where you have two parties only right now leading, I need to add these things. I think it creates a black and white thing, and it does create the two sides. But I don't think that, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna be kicked out of this studio if someone listens to this opposite. I'm just saying I don't think that.

01:31:20
Veronika Becher
And even if I disagree with one point or I disagree with a person's perspective on a certain party, I don't think that it is such an extreme matter where you, like, I don't know, I wouldn't be friends with you because you voted for Trump.

01:31:35
Abdullah Najjar
Right. And I think also it's not like you're gonna marry the person and maybe that's a different territory. A Different conversation, you know what I'm saying? Like it's, that's very different. That's when maybe these things can be a major factor. But if someone like you just mentioned like someone voted for Trump, maybe like I don't think, okay, I'll maybe backtrack a little bit. I said maybe that he had maybe 80 million supporters. I don't think that all of them actually voted for him because they liked him. You know, maybe they didn't have other options and the other option that they had didn't like. So I'd like to have more of like a nuanced view and I know how this particular topic is, can be quite emotionally charged and I know that people have very strong feelings about this.

01:32:24
Abdullah Najjar
I really understand and I'm honestly speaking as like an outsider, right. I'm looking at these things from an outsider's perspective. But generally speaking, what I would probably just say as a sort of closing remark on this particular subject is that people should just be more patient with one another. Just I ask for just more patience, you know, just.

01:32:48
Veronika Becher
Yeah, patience and more open mindedness. I think especially when things are charged as like black and white and one thing is bad, the other one is good, you lose a sense of understanding the other person's perspective. You don't have to agree. But one thing of being a good communicator I think is understanding that you don't always have to prove your point. Something that I realized that was actually one of the things I've learned last year. One of the biggest lessons is you don't. The I think the older you get and the more you like, I wouldn't say wiser you get because it sounds like I'm getting wise. I never make mistakes anymore. No, I'm not trying to say that.

01:33:35
Veronika Becher
I think the person like the better you the a communicator, the more you understand that you don't have to prove a point to someone who doesn't need to understand. Absolutely no, maybe doesn't need, but rather doesn't want to understand it. I think it's having the maturity. Maturity. This is what we're going for, right on the money, okay, Lottery moment. I think a mature communicator will not try to prove it like someone's point to be wrong and be like, my point is right and your point is wrong and there's no in between. Because I think something with maturity comes with like understanding that there are more nuances, just black and white. We've been having so many conversations these past days to just give you, like, a rundown. We, like, talked about, like, cheating people, being, like, unfaithful, like, religion.

01:34:28
Veronika Becher
Like, we had the most random, deep conversations ever. And there are so many like, situations where we think in a really black and white matter, but it's not this case. And I think being a communicator means if you approach someone, especially stranger, you need to have an open mind and be like, okay, I want to talk to you. And I might not get my point across, but I think, I hope that the other person has a sense of curiosity where we can still. Even if we disagree, we will agree in the point that we disagree. And I think it's important. I think that's really important. Like, just having. Having the conversation, trying to understand it. How many times did we have a conversation with each other? We disagreed completely, but then, like, one another, we, like, shifted. Oh, actually I like this idea.

01:35:17
Veronika Becher
Or actually, I still disagree with you. And nothing changed between us, like, us friends, nothing. Like, it didn't shift the way we saw each other. Only because one person likes one thing over the other.

01:35:31
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah, it's like, we didn't. It's not like, oh, I'm thinking about you less right now. Like, you are. Your value sort of lessened because of the way you think. You know what I'm saying? We're not even, like, thinking about. We're not saying, like, oh, we're thinking about some of the most. Let me give an example. It's not like you and I had positions that are completely horrendous. You know, it's not like they're morally reprehensible. You know, that would probably be maybe a deal breaker when, like, the position is just so, you know, messed up that you're like, I don't know what's happening right now. You know what I mean? Where you can't even, like, you don't even know how to engage with that person because it's just so. Yeah, you know what I mean?

01:36:19
Veronika Becher
Like, yes, I do. It's. I think there are certain values that, in my opinion, you establish yourself. And that's a different conversation that we will probably not have right now. But what I'm saying is it can be your belief system, it can be a religion, it can be anything that you associate with. What actually shapes your values and beliefs. Family, surrounding yourself, philosophy, whatever. And I think we follow these rules. If one of the conversation topics that you have with a partner actually falls out of your value base and actually triggers something that you should just you don't want to talk about. You disagree completely, and you think you cannot be friends with this person because of their belief system. It's okay, too. And I think that's something that, for instance, for both of us would be like if someone abuses their partner.

01:37:08
Veronika Becher
An example, both our value system, we have different values with each other, but the reason why we get along is we agree on the same values that we think are unethical, at least in most of them. And I think that's what we're like. Okay, but if you would have said something like, oh, I think it's okay to beat my wife. Oh, my gosh. Why are you laughing?

01:37:30
Abdullah Najjar
Come on.

01:37:32
Veronika Becher
My wife is crazy, though, too. I just said my wife. Like, I'm married.

01:37:35
Abdullah Najjar
Oh, my gosh.

01:37:36
Veronika Becher
The marriage thing is crazy.

01:37:40
Abdullah Najjar
That's quotable. So quotable. The marriage thing is crazy.

01:37:44
Veronika Becher
Yesterday, so many. Yesterday, a group of guys thought that I'm married because of the rings I'm wearing on my, like, right hand. And it was just crazy. So they, like, they shouted at me, oh, my gosh, congratulations, you're married. And, like, I don't know how many people turn around, but everyone was like. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm going to get married. And I'm not even in the relationship right now to even get married at all.

01:38:06
Abdullah Najjar
Jump ahead, fifth gear.

01:38:08
Veronika Becher
Yes. And I'm like, yo, I didn't know I have a partner. I mean, nice. I'm even married already. This is like a. Something like, I just woke up from, like a, I don't know, fever dream. I don't know. I was not thinking about the fever dream. But yes. So, yeah, speaking of that, I think then I would be like, I don't want to be friends with you. And I think now comes the. What happens if the person. That's probably the last step of the whole communication to strangers. So you approach a stranger, you have the conversation. You have a, like, icebreaker. You have you figured out how to be a good listener, how to actually make mistakes and be okay with that and kind of get out of the situation with maybe a sense of humor, let's say this way.

01:38:53
Veronika Becher
But then you realize it just didn't click it. It's not working. It's not the person. I don't really like the person because they said something that actually offended me. I don't think I can be friends with this person because of a certain word view that would just completely not align with my belief system. How do you get out of it?

01:39:16
Abdullah Najjar
Let's See, how do you get out of the conversation? Like, the situation? Oh, honestly, I could think of a lot of ways that might not be. You can. Most basic ones, you can say, well, I have an event to attend.

01:39:34
Veronika Becher
No, seriously, I was thinking about that too. I'm like, oh. What I would say is like, hey, I think I have to keep going. You get out of the conversation. You don't go some. You don't just leave them randomly. Please don't ghost people. Like, oh, my gosh, please don't do it. Explain it. But if you don't want to explain it. Oh, I think I disagree with you. What I understand in certain cultures, it might be really controversial to say that. Just be like, I know this feels like a white lie, but be like, oh, no, I have to keep going, or my friend is, like, waiting for me.

01:40:07
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah, I think these are fine ways of exiting that conversation. Looking for an exit strategy. I sometimes say, well, I have to, you know, I have something to write or something to work on, or I have other commitments. I might not even reveal what I have because I don't think sometimes it's the person's. We're not close. Like, I don't think it's your business. I don't want to. I don't have to tell you. I'm not obliged to tell you know, so these are things that I've, you know, I've done multiple times, and it's just not. I don't think it's inappropriate, you know, because at the end of the day, I think no one is sort of. We're not shackled, you know, we're not under these. You shouldn't. We're not held hostage. You know, you have that freedom to leave at any moment.

01:41:06
Veronika Becher
Good point. Like, actually, good point.

01:41:08
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah.

01:41:09
Veronika Becher
I think this is the thing that people overthink before they even approach the person. It's this thing of how do I get out of the conversation if it's awkward? Like, how do we actually leave the conversation? Like, we don't only overthink how we enter the conversation, but also how we get out of it if it's bad. And honestly, I don't think there's, like, the right solution to it.

01:41:33
Abdullah Najjar
You just leave Sometimes just say, well, okay, I'll see you around then.

01:41:38
Veronika Becher
And it feels awkward. But did someone. Did something happen to you after that?

01:41:43
Abdullah Najjar
Nothing, really. Just nothing. It's just, you just got out, you're.

01:41:47
Veronika Becher
Free, and that's it. And that's all it is about.

01:41:50
Abdullah Najjar
Right.

01:41:51
Veronika Becher
So basically, what did we learn in.

01:41:53
Abdullah Najjar
This episode, how to communicate. How not to communicate.

01:41:58
Veronika Becher
Yes.

01:41:59
Abdullah Najjar
How certain attempts can be failures and how certain attempts can be like yesterday, just a quick example. I was sitting in an event next to someone who was on their phone, but they had a quarter zip sweater on. And I usually try to maybe avoid the person that is on their phone, even though they might be using that as a tactic because they don't want to be. They don't want to not do something. They just want to do something. You know, they want to. Maybe they just want to avoid the other people. They want to be in their own zone. So there are two types, you know, either the one who's actually really busy on their phone, but someone who's on their phone because they just don't. They want to avoid awkwardness.

01:42:40
Abdullah Najjar
So the person was sitting next to me had a quarter zip on, and I was like, hey, you and I are matching. We both got a quarter zip. And he goes, yeah, that's right. That's right. Then we just started a conversation. And that was pretty nice, you know.

01:42:55
Veronika Becher
And you know, I think no matter how old you are and no matter how extrovert you are, you will still fear approaching people. I think the amount of times I get actually nervous over talking to someone, it's like it happens too many times. And I think, like, I was meeting up with a friend today and she was like, veronica, do you know you're like such a social butterfly. Like, you actually scare people sometimes with the way you approach it. And I'm like, yes, I do maybe. But at the same time, it still scares me to talk to people. It still makes me nervous. It has nothing to do if you extroverted or introverted. I think that's like the biggest misconception people have. It doesn't matter. It doesn't. Maybe for some people it's easier than for others, but I think it's just something you learn.

01:43:50
Veronika Becher
The more you do it, the easier it gets. And it reminds me as maybe like a closing story. I met a guy in a coffee shop once, and he told me that he made it his challenge to approach every single day one stranger in a coffee shop and have a conversation with them. To just have a conversation. And if you fail. But sometimes you get such an interesting interaction. Introspective. Introspective into someone's world that it's maybe fulfilling. And maybe you don't even like conversations. Then may books be your best friends. True. Do you have any last, like, message you feel like conversation wise? How to approach a stranger and communicate with them?

01:44:45
Abdullah Najjar
Yeah, well, I think generally just be. And I know that sounds a little too simple to say, but just be yourself. You know, don't just be yourself and you're approaching that person. You don't have to concoct an entirely different personality or, you know, embody something different in hopes that the person would like you no matter who that person is. Yeah, just be yourself.

01:45:19
Veronika Becher
You will attract the wrong people if you do that. Why do you want to talk to someone if you don't like soccer? You don't have to pretend to like soccer, but you could, but not to someone who you want to best friends with. I understand if it's a one second conversation type of thing, but you don't have to do that if you don't like it. Just be true to yourself. Because the people that truly, genuinely care about who you are, they would like the way you communicate. Even with your little accent and your heritage and your background and whatever else you're saying and the awkwardness and the awkward silence you create. It's the people that wouldn't care as much because even if you both make your made remark in a made, it just really awkward between both of you.

01:46:08
Veronika Becher
It's okay, just laugh it off. It's gonna be okay. Yeah, I mean, we have a wonderful, really long conversation about the most random like topic if you think about it.

01:46:21
Abdullah Najjar
But it's important though.

01:46:23
Veronika Becher
I think it's yes, especially I think to leave off this conversation, this episode. I think I want to stress on the importance of not being scared to meet new people if you are in the position right now. And I know it happens to a lot of freshmen, to a lot of people that move, that start a new semester. They like, they stick to their old friend groups because they're so scared to get out of there and meet new people even though they don't fit into these friend groups. What I'm trying to say is don't be scared because you can meet people and you will meet people. It just might take time, but you will. And feeling lonely and feeling all these emotions is normal because people go through it all the time.

01:47:08
Abdullah Najjar
That's right. That's completely right.

01:47:11
Veronika Becher
But yeah, so I was like, here's a story. Basically I would like to end this episode with like, I said these words and dear listeners, I hope you have a wonderful semester. Go out there, talk to a stranger in a coffee shop, and if it doesn't work out well, you can always send me your funniest stories ever through Instagram. I would love to listen to it. So, yeah, thank you so much for being here, Abdullah, and. Yeah, pleasure. Have a nice day.

01:47:50
Abdullah Najjar
Thank you.

01:47:51
Veronika Becher
Bye.