Identity Library

00:00
Veronika Becher
Hey, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Identity Library. My name is Veronica Becher, and today I'm joined by Abdullah Najar, who is now looking at me because he just makes me laugh all the time.

00:11
Abdullah Najar
I promise to look away.

00:13
Veronika Becher
We just. We started recording this episode and we failed already, twice. It's okay. It's okay.

00:19
Veronika Becher
Let's just.

00:21
Abdullah Najar
We'll just take it for what it is.

00:25
Veronika Becher
Do you want to introduce yourself maybe to the audience? Everyone who doesn't know?

00:31
Abdullah Najar
Yeah, yeah, no, of course. So I am, in addition to being.

00:37
Abdullah Najar
Veronica's co host, and in addition to hosting my own podcast, I'm a student.

00:42
Abdullah Najar
Here at NC State University, and I'm in a master's program pursuing a degree international studies. And I am from Libya. And that is for those who are geographically challenged. That's in North Africa.

01:03
Veronika Becher
This is bad. I'm sorry.

01:05
Abdullah Najar
No, I mean, some people don't know.

01:07
Abdullah Najar
It, and some people have never met a person from Libya.

01:10
Veronika Becher
I've noticed that.

01:12
Veronika Becher
No, Even with Germany.

01:14
Veronika Becher
Like, I just had recently a conversation.

01:16
Veronika Becher
With this girl who asked me what German is and what Germany is, and.

01:20
Veronika Becher
I was like, that's shocking if you didn't know that. Well, she's younger, though, so it's okay.

01:26
Veronika Becher
It's okay.

01:26
Abdullah Najar
But these people have never heard of. Of Germany?

01:29
Veronika Becher
No.

01:29
Abdullah Najar
That's. That's incredible.

01:31
Veronika Becher
She wasn't even sure that there is a different country that is, like, across the globe. Okay. Culture.

01:38
Abdullah Najar
And we're not talking about geographically challenged people here.

01:40
Abdullah Najar
We're talking about perhaps American-ly challenged.

01:45
Abdullah Najar
I just coined that term.

01:47
Abdullah Najar
When you're so. So immersed in a particular culture, maybe just one. This happens to be America, and you're just completely unaware of what exists outside of America or where you're from. It's very rare. I've never seen a case like that before.

02:05
Veronika Becher
Not knowing where Germany is.

02:07
Abdullah Najar
Not knowing where anything is.

02:10
Veronika Becher
I think the craziest thing so far.

02:12
Veronika Becher
That I've heard was Germany.

02:15
Veronika Becher
That we speak Spanish in Germany. There are some other things that are also crazy. Like going for. Like, when I lived in South Dakota, I had, like, the weirdest experiences in high school. Okay. High school kids are a little bit crazy, too. But basically, one of the guys came up to me and asked me if we ride horses because we don't have our streets and we are just living in the wilderness. And I was like, what about most? Like, Mercedes, Porsche, and all the other.

02:45
Abdullah Najar
You know, all the big gars. The cars.

02:48
Veronika Becher
Yes, cars. Like, I think right now, half of the population would have just. I Don't know what they would do to this kid, but basically, yeah.

02:57
Abdullah Najar
Oh, my God.

03:00
Abdullah Najar
I thought were the ones, you know, Middle Easterns or Arabs. I thought were the ones who would be considered the people who ride camels.

03:09
Abdullah Najar
I get that a lot. Like, at one point, we got to.

03:13
Abdullah Najar
Know this person, my friends and I, were here in the US and were just. We were actually having fun with that person because that person thought that we rode camels back home, and we decided.

03:27
Abdullah Najar
To go with that joke. And I told that person with my friends, were, you know, were around that person.

03:33
Abdullah Najar
And I told my friends, I really miss my camel.

03:36
Abdullah Najar
I left my camel behind. Oh, my gosh, I can't believe I left my camel behind.

03:42
Veronika Becher
I would love to use a joke that you told me yesterday.

03:48
Abdullah Najar
Yes.

03:48
Abdullah Najar
It depends on the joke, though.

03:50
Veronika Becher
The one with how to call Muslim people.

03:54
Abdullah Najar
Oh, yes, please do that. Well, I mean, okay, I think some.

03:58
Abdullah Najar
People, you know, I'm sure people would not be offended.

04:01
Abdullah Najar
I'm not offended by it. But, you know, we've got to put a disclaimer here.

04:08
Veronika Becher
At the beginning of this episode. Today, we just talk about random things that might offend people. Please don't take it to heart.

04:16
Abdullah Najar
It's unfiltered.

04:17
Veronika Becher
It's unfiltered. Oh, new podcast name.

04:22
Abdullah Najar
There we go. We're getting creative.

04:26
Veronika Becher
Okay, you can tell the joke.

04:28
Abdullah Najar
Oh, okay.

04:29
Veronika Becher
You're the one. It's your joke.

04:30
Abdullah Najar
Oh, it's my joke. Okay. So the funniest thing is I was creating. I was creating a paper for one of my students and.

04:38
Veronika Becher
Life of a ta.

04:40
Abdullah Najar
Exactly.

04:40
Veronika Becher
You know, when you have these memes on Instagram, it's like the funniest answers that kids write to, like, some really random questions.

04:48
Abdullah Najar
In elementary school, yes, I experienced that almost on a daily basis grading papers, or on a weekly basis, that is. But anyways, in one of these papers.

04:58
Abdullah Najar
I was grading, this person did not know how to refer to people who subscribe to the Islamic religion. And so instead of referring to them as Muslims, she would. Or he. I should probably not disclose the pronoun.

05:13
Abdullah Najar
Of the person, but it's already out there. The person said, instead of saying Muslims, they said Islams. And they kept referring to Muslims throughout the essay as Islams. And it doesn't end there. I remember sending this to some of my friends who come from the region, the Arab world. And one of them said, I sent that picture screenshot, and he said, welcome to Islam land. And another one was, like, taking it too far. He said, stuff That I probably won't reveal here, but we have a sense of humor, basically. Muslims have a sense of humor, basically.

05:53
Veronika Becher
If you ever want to visit his country, welcome to Islam land, where people are Islams living there.

06:02
Abdullah Najar
You don't fight any Muslims, Only Islams.

06:05
Veronika Becher
Yes. And you don't use cars, right?

06:07
Abdullah Najar
Oh, we just use camels.

06:09
Veronika Becher
Yes.

06:09
Abdullah Najar
You're in a desert to prepare yourself. Exactly. Oh, my God.

06:13
Veronika Becher
You are basically the desert.

06:15
Abdullah Najar
We are the desert. No, here's another funny thing, another funny story that's also taking it too far. I remember when I. When I shaved my hair off and I grew my beard out. I sent the picture to one of my friends who lives in the region, by the way, Middle East. And he's like, damn, boy, are you coming to kill us? Kill some Arabs? He thought I was like, special Forces guy.

06:42
Abdullah Najar
Oh, no.

06:43
Abdullah Najar
And I was like, okay, this beard is scaring people. I'm removing it.

06:47
Veronika Becher
This is why. This is why. Why he always wear your boy's newsboy's hat? Yes.

06:54
Abdullah Najar
Yeah, I don't want to scare people off. I don't want to give an impression.

06:58
Veronika Becher
That I'm killing them. No. I think like one of the biggest misconceptions that I've encountered was the whole German background history and how people so.

07:10
Veronika Becher
Perceive our regime and how we live still in Germany. It's a little bit a sensitive topic.

07:16
Veronika Becher
Let'S say it this way, but apparently I encountered some people that were not aware that we are out of this regime. Let's go this way. And some people assume that, you know, a really well known person, you know, is my neighbor. And for anyone who doesn't know who I'm talking about, I don't know, I'm just gonna drop it. You know, that Hitler is my neighbor or my cousin. And it was like me just going through those, like, whole year living in South Dakota and getting the most absurd.

07:48
Veronika Becher
Comments about how Hitler is my neighbor, my cousin, and do I even visit him daily? On daily basis, all the time.

07:55
Veronika Becher
And I was like, are you joking.

07:57
Veronika Becher
Or were you serious about that? Because as a joke, okay, I can live with that. But if you're serious, I'll be concerned. I'll be at a different level. Concern. Until I think our English teacher stopped these kids of asking me these questions because they were really.

08:14
Veronika Becher
Yeah, they just. They. I.

08:17
Veronika Becher
Okay, that's rough.

08:18
Veronika Becher
I'm just. No, it's actually not as rough because Germans surprisingly understand humor. We actually good with this type of humor. I think the issue is when you have a misconception later on and you actually are serious about these things. If it's a joke, it's okay. If it's something serious accusing you of, like, being, you know, in a certain regime, it's complicated.

08:40
Abdullah Najar
But yeah, no, I get. I mean, I think even intra group jokes are. Sometimes there are certain jokes that are not frowned upon when it's in between the group itself. But when you stretch out and people start, you know, thinking that they can say certain things without offending you, I think that becomes a problem because I can share that. I can, I can joke with my friends about like, similar to the jokes that I was mentioning earlier, Islam then, like, we could probably joke about these things because we are already. Well, we've known each other for a while and we share pretty much like similar identities, so it's not, it wouldn't be misconstrued that joke if I were to say it or if my friend would make that joke.

09:31
Abdullah Najar
But if someone from the outside of that group makes a joke about the group, then it sort of becomes a problem because you don't know what their intentions are and you don't know where.

09:40
Veronika Becher
They'Re coming from and if they actually are serious about it. Right, exactly. Yeah, I agree. It is an issue. And sometimes when people don't love and you don't know their sarcasm yet, you.

09:53
Veronika Becher
Sometimes also question if they're serious, It's a little problematic.

09:57
Veronika Becher
So. But I also realized living in the United States changed my sense of humor a lot too, because sometimes we played the other day we had some students from Germany over here through Fulbright, and were playing cards against humanity. If you heard of this game.

10:16
Abdullah Najar
Yeah, we. Yeah, I think we played it.

10:18
Veronika Becher
Yeah, exactly three weeks ago. Yeah.

10:19
Abdullah Najar
Actually, they're your birthday.

10:20
Veronika Becher
Yeah, I know. And, and basically I realized that the sense of humor that I have nowadays.

10:28
Veronika Becher
Is so different than the German humor.

10:29
Veronika Becher
That is like 100% German.

10:31
Veronika Becher
Unless I switch completely into my German personality-- identity library.

10:36
Veronika Becher
Yes, exactly.

10:40
Veronika Becher
So what happened there was just that this girl found it really funny that like, the cutest answers would actually be the funniest answers. And I was like, Americans would never choose the cute answer in Cuts against Humanity or we would always choose for some reason the one that is just inappropriate.

11:04
Abdullah Najar
Right.

11:05
Veronika Becher
In any kind of way.

11:06
Abdullah Najar
In the same game. Right.

11:07
Veronika Becher
Yeah.

11:08
Veronika Becher
But then she was like, that's adorable. I want to pick this one. It was kind of funny in the moment, but looking back, I was like, that's a different sense of humor that.

11:17
Veronika Becher
I never gonna understand completely.

11:21
Abdullah Najar
Yeah, but it changed. I mean, the culture certainly changes, tweaks your behavior a little bit. You have to adjust it to a certain extent. But I think you were mentioning something earlier, before we started recording, about how you wouldn't want to wipe or rather discard your entire identity or disavow of your identity simply to want to assimilate. Like, you want to keep cling on to some of your values and some of the things that you consider to be, you know, core components of who you are, in spite of the fact that you are in a culture that's pretty much very different. Like, you do want to cling on to certain things that make up the person that you are. And that's. I think you made an interesting point earlier of, you know, wanting to not necessarily shed everything about you in order to assimilate.

12:17
Abdullah Najar
You want to be who you are, but at the same time, you can still find a way to adjust or tweak certain things about yourself to not necessarily alienate people. Right?

12:31
Veronika Becher
I mean, yeah, it was just a context of, like, you know, an epiphany about culture differences and how your closest relationships affect you and just realizing that sometimes when you try to adjust to a different culture, what happens is you end up. You end up adjusting so much that you almost put a mask on your face and disregard your own values. Or you have to sometimes disregard your values because, just a simple example, Germans are more direct. We approach criticism. Criticism, criticism.

13:07
Veronika Becher
Let's go. Let's go.

13:08
Abdullah Najar
We're good.

13:08
Veronika Becher
We're good.

13:09
Abdullah Najar
We're all good.

13:09
Veronika Becher
And feedback, completely different than Americans do. We seek it out actively. It's almost expected that you're gonna get bad, I don't know, feedback, because people want you to improve. But the way we give feedback is redirect. So we can offend someone by saying that the way we do, but it has also some positive, like, sides to it, and there's a reason why we do it the way we do it. So when you switch countries, you realize that you can't just stick with these values and be direct all the time. It can be helpful because you can resolve conflicts much easier. I think you can address things faster. And you don't beat around the bush. You just say it the way it is. Why?

13:53
Veronika Becher
Sometimes it's also good because you don't want to offend someone, so you rephrase it like you would do it in America. So based on that idea, I feel like it's difficult to uphold your own values, cultural values, but also switch completely to a different one. A different viewpoint and adjust yourself completely outside of your natural, like. Like, let's call it job setting. And open up to your friends about how you want to be treated and how you want to communicate, because your communication style is completely different than theirs.

14:29
Abdullah Najar
That's. I think one element about perhaps my culture is that there's a heightened. A heightened understanding of the exchange of pleasantries. And what I mean by that is we have a lot of. We beat around the bush a lot, and we use a lot of, like, pet names and certain terminology that showcases a level of affection and acceptance that's not necessarily true. So, for example, if I meet a person, a guy, and, you know, we have a conversation or we have something pretty brief, short encounter, we. We use the word habibi a lot, which literally translates to my lover.

15:26
Veronika Becher
Oh, my gosh. I feel like we had this conversation, but go ahead.

15:29
Abdullah Najar
Did we really?

15:30
Veronika Becher
I. Not the same one. But habibi is used in German rap, oh, so much.

15:37
Veronika Becher
It's one of the same things. You remember when we had, like, how to greet someone?

15:41
Abdullah Najar
Right, right.

15:43
Veronika Becher
Oh, my gosh.

15:44
Abdullah Najar
Yeah, that's true. No, that's true. So that's the thing, like, you have.

15:48
Abdullah Najar
You use a lot of words and terminology that is supposed to become so diluted that you don't really know whether it's genuine or not. Because we haven't had an experience of brutal honesty or flagrant behavior. One of my professors likes to use the word flagrant, which is, I think, French, which translates to flagrant, quite blunt. We don't really have that. We always mask or sugarcoat our communication between one another, which truly hides or obscures the intentions or the true message that you're trying to convey. And that's just the problem. And it's good. I think it's good to have a balance. It's good to be honest and blunt. But, you know, sometimes it's good to sort of have a little bit of a, you know, an exchange of pleasantries that's just so Arab, like, for lack of a better word, you know what I mean?

16:53
Veronika Becher
Do you think it always leads to miscommunication?

16:59
Abdullah Najar
Maybe not always, but in a lot of situations it would, because one is not being honest or genuine. I think I personally don't like it when people call me habibi. You know, I. I don't, because I.

17:17
Veronika Becher
Just like thinking, like, every single time I'm gonna see you, I'm gonna just.

17:20
Veronika Becher
Shout across the whole campus, habibi, I'm.

17:23
Abdullah Najar
Gonna run other way. I'm Gonna like, I don't know this.

17:26
Abdullah Najar
Person, but it's like, it's not. I don't really like it because I think we've diluted the word so much that it lost its meaning. And I like giving words justice or expressions justice. I want. If I'm. If I say. If I say that someone is a friend of mine, or if I say that's a best friend, or if I say that's my special someone, like, I truly mean it when I say it. I wouldn't use that in a loose and quick way as much as, you know, these people would when they use the word habibi. It's just. It lost its meaning. And when you keep using it a lot and when you use other words a lot that express a level of affection, that's not necessarily true. It just. You. You.

18:13
Abdullah Najar
You're essentially hiding the true nature of or obscuring the relationship or the true nature of that communication. And that might not always, to your question, lead to trouble or sort of collapse, but it creates problems. It creates a rift because it's like, well, where are we? Where do we stand? Or what are we? That's why I prefer more honesty and less. And less of this sort of less of that exchange that's not real.

18:55
Veronika Becher
Do you feel the same way about nicknames? Because I feel like I tend to not introduce myself with my nicknames. I have, like, ton of them. For some reason, people just try to shorten up my name because it's too long for everyone's opinion. The thing is, though, I realized when I introduced myself with a nickname, people will only use my nickname. Or what I don't like is when people switch to my nickname without knowing me on a personal basis. It's. I've experienced this in college in Germany when were. Oh, my gosh, when a girl. She addressed me as Vero, just like my first four letters. And in Germany, a lot of people call me just Veronica. It. You know, the nickname established itself through playing volleyball all the time.

19:41
Veronika Becher
And when a ball is, like, flying across the court, you don't want to, you know, shout the whole name. So people just start calling me Vero because it's shorter and faster to the point. And when I need to, like, you know, I don't know, make a point, people just would use my nickname. And I. I liked it. I didn't mind it, you know. Well, some people called me V. There were so many nicknames, a ton of them. But it's strange, when she walked up to me and she called me Vero, like, we. On a personal good basis. Like, we know each other outside of school, but weren't even on good terms. And that just threw me off.

20:19
Veronika Becher
And I was like, I don't want anyone to use my nickname without actually being on the spaces with me because a nickname is a personal relationship with me. Almost like someone who is a close friend to me that knows me for long enough and that I'm okay with using my nickname. She didn't ask me. She just. She just used it. So I'm really curious. Would you say a nickname is a thing that also might be like, indirect communication, or is it a different case completely?

20:48
Abdullah Najar
Yeah, well. Well, I do want to first off say that this is one thing that I maybe don't have a strong attachment to the idea of the nickname. We use a lot of nicknames, of course. I mean, I think in most cultures nicknames are, you know, I guess, commonly used. I think for me, when I do have different variations of my name, people call me different things. Obviously, you know, they would be considered nicknames. My mom would probably call me Abu dha. My friends would probably call me Abdu. Here in the US Some people call me Abdul. Actually, my professor, you know, he would call me Abdul, the one that I assist at the department. But I never really found. I might be like, huh? When someone calls me by my nickname without knowing me personally. Right. That might trigger a reaction.

21:50
Abdullah Najar
But I wouldn't. This is where I probably wouldn't feel offended because I think my lack of attachment to that idea of how, I guess how personal I consider my name is or my nicknames are. But I think the more you get to know a person, the more you're sort of. The more maybe a person gets to know you, the more you reveal and the more you are comfortable with them. One doesn't have to take things, you know, just take it slow. You don't have to be too quick. But when it, when it. Essentially, when it goes back to nicknames, I. Generally speaking, I don't think I've ever called anyone or anybody by their nickname. I love using people's names.

22:45
Abdullah Najar
Like, I really think even when I text people, when I reach out to people, I use their name, you know, And I think addressing a person with their name, I think, like, it triggers something like, especially if you text someone, like, you will notice a difference. Like if someone texts you with, hey, do you want to hang out tonight? And if someone texts you with a different someone else texts you and says, hey, Veronica, do you want to Hang out tonight. It's so different. And I'm sure even if I, you know, even if these are two of your closest friends, one message seems to be more personal. The other can be too generic. Even when you look at your email and you have like a spam on your spam folder, like, you notice how the greeting starts with hey or hi, like you.

23:38
Abdullah Najar
Immediately you're like, yeah, that. That person is like that. That's definitely a spam. But when it's like, when you see your name at first, like, the first thing you see your name, it says hi, Veronica, or Dear Veronica. Like you. You notice that. Okay, that. That part. That specific part immediately established something intimate, something personal. And you were more inclined to read through that email than perhaps the one that didn't include your name because you would have. Maybe you have questions or you have concerns, but that's just, you know, I stretched out a little bit and I digress and use the email example. But the point that I'm trying to get at is I don't really have a lot of, like, a strong attachment to, I guess, nicknames. I would be surprised.

24:23
Abdullah Najar
Obviously, someone call me, use a nickname to refer to me without knowing me personally. But at the same time, I never felt that sort offended me. But I, again, I really like making my communications with people more personal. And these are the subtle things. You know, I might not use their nickname, but I would use their name. And so I think, you know, it's one of the things that people. It's one of. It's one of your. It's one of those things about your identity. You know, name is one of them. And so if that does not. It's not acknowledged. It's like you've practically did not acknowledge one of the main sort of components of who a person is. So that's one level of acknowledgement using their name. And that's something I learned over the years. You know, I receive a lot of.

25:18
Abdullah Najar
I communicate with a lot of people. I receive a lot of texts. And you do notice a difference with the different messages that you receive where one feels more personal, where I see my name, and the other ones where. And I'm sure it's not intentional, but if I were to just, you know, from the outside looking in, if I just post all these messages, I can see the ones that stand out because they felt more personal and they included my name. But I don't know. I don't know if that's something you kind of. Maybe. Maybe I'm painting a rough Sketch here that maybe you haven't put a lot of thought into, but I'd love to hear sort of where you stand on it.

25:57
Veronika Becher
I have so many questions.

25:59
Veronika Becher
I'm just like, keep, like, noting it down questions. And then you answered one of them.

26:04
Veronika Becher
I was thinking of identity in the way of. We like, you know, a name can be attached to identity, right. We recall, like, if someone calls our name, we react. If someone says something that is similar to our name, we also react. Right. Subconsciously, even if we, like, completely focused one, like, discussion, we hear it and we, like, we just start paying attention. Right. So what, I'm curious, would you say it holds a huge, like. Like a huge amount of. How do you phrase that? Would you say your name is so important for your own identity or it's something that just is like a supplementary. Like something that you just add to your identity as a name?

26:52
Abdullah Najar
Yeah, no, that's a good question.

26:54
Veronika Becher
It just. Sorry if I have one last thing, like, so you understand where I'm coming from.

26:58
Abdullah Najar
Right.

26:59
Veronika Becher
Bad example. But were talking about Hitler and so on. If you think about concentration camps, really heavy topic, what they did. You probably know that they gave people numbers instead of names. So they stripped down their identity as being like, having an identity by giving them just a number that should, you know.

27:23
Abdullah Najar
Yeah, I have. I have an example.

27:26
Veronika Becher
Go ahead.

27:26
Abdullah Najar
That's so cool. No, okay, no, sorry. The example that I'm going to mention.

27:30
Abdullah Najar
Because it relates to what you're saying, but I got a little too excited here because I had an example. Okay, so what. When one. There's. There's a movie about assassins that's called. Yeah, it's called Hitman. And essentially what this agency does is that it takes all of these orphans and they train them, they put them through this rigorous, you know, training path in order to become human machines and are able to assassinate people and perform the duties of this agency. But the catch is, maybe it wouldn't be considered a catch, but the part that relates to what you were saying and the historical example is that all of these orphans are given numbers, not names. And you have agent 47 or you have agent 45 or agent 46. They're giving numbers.

28:28
Abdullah Najar
And so names, even when you, like, stereotypically, when you think of a particular name, like, names create an image in our mind, you know, an identity or a person. Like Greg, you might think of, like. Or Gary. There's a stereotype of Gary, Indiana, you know, the lame duck, the couch potato. Right. So names are powerful and I think they do play an important role in a person's identity or who a person is. Because I do think that maybe if someone did not know me as Abdullah or, you know, the example of the time when, you know, I was. I was known as a John, you know, which is a different story that we can get into later. But anyways, there's. There's an entirely different. I think the perspective sort of shifts.

29:23
Abdullah Najar
Like if someone has exposure to an Arabic culture and they hear my name, say an American person, they hear my name, they have a level of exposure to Arabic culture that would sort of shape perhaps in the beginning how they think of me, because that name carries a particular weight. It not only carries me as a person, but it carries the culture and the different facets of that culture from which the name comes from. And so I think to me. And that's when I. When I admit that I forgot your question, but I think names, I guess your question was whether or not they're important to one's identity. Right.

30:10
Veronika Becher
And if it's something that is the main thing about identity almost, or it's.

30:14
Abdullah Najar
Something just adds to your identity, accessory or complementary. I see what you're saying. I think. I truly think they can be both, because you are not. You didn't choose your name unless at some point of your life you chose to identify as something or the other. But you are given that name from the beginning. You know, from the day you were born, you're given that name. And that's, I think, one of the most consistent elements of who you are or what you are. And so it has accompanied you for almost every stage of your life. And if that doesn't sort of.

30:54
Abdullah Najar
If that wasn't a core component of who you are, then I would be interested to know what other components that accompanied you for almost every part of your life that you sort of maybe associate with or make up a part of who you are. I think your name has been or always will be a consistent part of who you are. And it carries a weight. It carries not just the person that you are, but perhaps the culture that you come from and the meaning to it. Because names, some names have meanings. Like my name would be translated as, you know, roughly speaking, the servant of God, you know, and that has a meaning to it. So it carries that meaning. It carries the culture from which it comes from. It carries the person who associates with that name.

31:55
Abdullah Najar
So it can be quite an important element of who you are, but it could also be considered an accessory. If you are given a name that you do not necessarily agree with or you don't have maybe a strong attachment to. Because some people are given names that at some point in their lives they decide to discard and adopt a different one. So it's like. But you see people adopt names, right? And so that means they are important. I don't know, I just, it's an interesting question that I don't think I've given a lot of thought about.

32:25
Veronika Becher
My grandma's name was Yevdakiya. What is a really old fashioned Russian name. But we never called her Yevdakir and she didn't like the name either. Every single time we will call her Lucia. And Lucia is a different like name. And so every single time when I would greet her, I'm like, baba Lucia. So Babushka is like the like grandma and Baba is just like. Usually it can be also an offending way, like you can actually offend someone, but if it's someone in your family who's like, I don't know, like a grandchild saying that it's okay, it's like actually acceptable and people do it all the time. And so we never use her full name.

33:06
Veronika Becher
And I was just thinking about that as well as, like if you know when you have like a middle name and like another name and you have like five names, I don't know, based on your grandma and grandpa and who else?

33:21
Abdullah Najar
Hyphenated names, middle names.

33:24
Veronika Becher
It's so interesting how a tradition or like a family background can be carried into like your own name. Like we in Germany, we don't have middle names at all. We don't use middle names. It's so strange, but Americans do. And I remember my host family back then when my host mom was pregnant, they were deciding on a name and they couldn't decide because the initials would be so significant too on how people perceive you. So just like AJ or AD or like it's just the first and two initials based on your middle name and your first name hold also a huge significance in your culture too. But then in other cultures you just disregard it completely. Like I'm written Veronica with a K. What is like basically just done. Because my parents wanted something more universal.

34:20
Veronika Becher
A C in Russian is an S if you write this way. So writing it with a K makes it actually look more Russian, but at the same time it's also used in other countries and you would not misunderstand the name. Right? And we are in Russia, for instance, you don't use, you are not on first name basis most of the time. So what we have, I don't know if I ever mentioned to you, we have a word called oh, it is based on your dad's first name and you create an orchestra. What is not a. What is. It's not a last name, it's not a first name. It's a special name that you get. Let's go this way. Based on your dad's name and if you're female or male, you attach a specific ending to it.

35:08
Veronika Becher
So even though I cannot roll the R, my dad's name is Andrei and I will be considered Andrey. Vna. Vna is the Russian, like the like. That would be like my orchestra. And because I'm female, you attach would be like the actual like male version of it. And people in school would call you only based on this name. They or rarely use you like your first name. And I've seen the same thing. I think it's in Japanese culture where first names are so intimate and that's where we come back to the topic with nicknames and calling someone habibi and so on. I think people specifically don't use actually your first name.

35:57
Veronika Becher
They use your last name more because it holds such a bigger value in how close you are to someone using certain names or like calling someone, I think it's Korean, like aunt or uncle. And then you have certain like names depending on how old you are in comparison to your own age. And then you could adjust it and call someone like in a specific way because of your age gap that you have.

36:23
Veronika Becher
I hope that's not too confusing.

36:25
Abdullah Najar
But no, I, I have a couple of things if you may to say about this. One thing is I'd love to maybe take it back to culture here. One thing that I want to share is that back home in Libya when first off you have this idea of a hyphenated name, which I'm sure you're aware of as well. You hear for example a person called Mary Beth, like two names hyphenated or Mary Jane or these types of things. So we have that. And we also have a middle name though it is the father's name. And I as an Abdullah, my full name would be Abdullah Nabil Najjar. So my first name is Abdullah. My middle name is actually my father's name and obviously my last name is Najar.

37:31
Abdullah Najar
So even my sister, you know, that name doesn't switch based off of the gender of the person or the son or the daughter. Like it stays the same. So my sister, Khadijah Nabil Najar, the same middle name remains consistent. And that's interesting because I never knew in the United States people had middle names that. That were actually their name. You know, like, you know, you have John, say it's a John Smith. You have a middle name in there, John Taylor Smith, for example. Like, that middle name is still their name. It's not somebody else's. So that's one thing I wanted to mention. The other thing that.

38:16
Abdullah Najar
And I love that you brought up the subject of names, because, oh, my goodness, yesterday when I was recording my podcast, when I was talking to this guy, my good friend Mick Mulroy, about stoicism, one thing that we. I brought up was that was the early. The early Stoic. His name was Epictetus, I believe. And one thing that, you know, I talked about a couple of things about Epictetus where he's, you know, what his belief systems are and what he thinks about external events and the control that we have over these things and what it's like to be a stoic. And then when my friend Mick started talking about Epictetus, one thing he mentioned that I didn't know was that we don't actually know the real name of Epictetus. Like, he was.

39:01
Abdullah Najar
He was born a slave, and he was, you know, I think that name, I think, translates to slave. And we don't really. He never adopted a different name. Like, we don't really know his actual name. And that, like that idea of being born perhaps nameless or acquiring a name or perhaps shedding your own name. The only. The consistent variable here is still the name, which means it does hold a tremendous amount of weight, and it has a lot of defining characteristics that are stereotypical.

39:44
Abdullah Najar
And one other thing that I want to mention, and then maybe you can tell me more about what you think about this, is that in one book that I was reading, that's called Amercy, it's set in early colonial America, in the 16th century, I believe, or 17th century, you have a family deciding to adopt at the time, a very religious Presbyterian family deciding to adopt a Native American girl. And in one of the scenes, you see how this family is trying to wipe out the identity of that Native American girl. And one of the things that they do is that they give her a name, a different name than the one that she's born with, which means that, again, names just carry tremendous weight, and they. They give an impression of a person.

40:40
Abdullah Najar
Like, we have so many a lot of images get conjured up in our minds when we hear a particular name. And I remember making a joke, sharing a joke with you about your name Veronica and what sort of, you know, movie that I remember and seen. And it's a funny, hilarious scene of a girl named Veronica.

40:57
Veronika Becher
Yeah.

40:57
Abdullah Najar
And so, you know, you hear that name and something is triggered in your mind. You know, just, you can't. There are certain people you can't really, whose names you just can't replace. Where you're like, you know, I sometimes have that experience where I meet a person who leaves tremendous impact on me. They go by a particular name and then I meet another person who shares that very exact same name. But they don't have. Where I'm like, no, you're not a John or no, you're not a Lucy. There's only one Lucy. You know, it's like, it's interesting. I don't know.

41:39
Veronika Becher
It's the same way when you meet someone you had a bad experience with and you internally already judged the other person based on their name, you're like, oh, I didn't like Victoria. This Victoria is going to be the same. So maybe paying attention to how we judge and perceive people based on the name is really important. And it's also really like crazy because it's your parents that give you the name that will determine your whole life. There's even a thing about last, maybe a study that was super interesting. It's concerning more last names. But since in Germany in school we really often go more by last name than by first name. Maybe elementary school you would switch. But the older you get, the more people pay attention to your last name. And there's a study done.

42:30
Veronika Becher
I'm not sure where, like what university did it, but it's depending on where you are on the list, like on the roaster and where your last name is located. You can see who will get better grades, statistically speaking. So if you're on the top, I think 10 placements in the class list, you will probably get better grades than someone who's on the bottom of the list. Because we associate good grades and good achievements with people that have last names and the top of a roaster. And so I'm not saying that's why I got into NC State.

43:06
Veronika Becher
I do have a really like, you know, like first 10 people roast their name.

43:13
Veronika Becher
But it's the same. It goes the same way. If you would switch your. To your first name and my first name is like completely on the bottom. You again have the same thing. And you most likely. It's the same thing. There's a bias. I just talked about it with my friend the other day, where the first thing you hear and the last thing you hear are the things that stick stay with you. There's a specific, like, bias of what you remember based on the conversation, based on, like, the name. And so if your name is in the beginning of the Rosa, and in the end, you most likely will remember these people in your class than someone who is in between. So I'm sorry if you're in between. I'm sorry to tell you.

43:54
Veronika Becher
Yes, but that's just a thought that came and crossed my mind.

44:00
Abdullah Najar
But I think. But yeah, I think that's even how, in general, how we orient our lives. We like to have maybe because for simplicity's sake, we always look at things in terms like of a binary. Right, ones and zeros, top, bottom, right, left.

44:27
Veronika Becher
Good stats.

44:28
Abdullah Najar
Yeah, good.

44:28
Veronika Becher
Black, white.

44:29
Abdullah Najar
Yeah. So top of the list, bottom of the list, we don't look at the ones in the middle, but there's always a gray area. But we rarely, you know, see that. That. That gray area. And. And so that's why all of that nuance gets forgotten if you apply it back to the example of the roster. All of those middle names, the names.

44:50
Abdullah Najar
In the middle are forgotten. And, you know, even with, like, it's.

44:55
Abdullah Najar
Interesting that you mentioned a conversation and how, you know, maybe we've remembered the beginning and the end because it's like all of that nuance is oftentimes not captured because I guess human beings like simplicity, even though we're complex. I'm sure our minds are complex, but we always look at things from a very binary perspective, right? You know, good or bad, north or south, east or west, one or two, liberal or conservative.

45:21
Veronika Becher
And maybe that's the reason why nicknames also so alluring to us, having a shorter name, something you can say much faster. Simpler the simpler the better. Maybe that's also the reason why we do it. Like, maybe there isn't even it. It just feels like simpler is better. The simpler way in life is easier and better. If I can actually skip the workout.

45:46
Veronika Becher
And get my abs without even doing anything.

45:50
Veronika Becher
Yes, I would take this path.

45:52
Abdullah Najar
Right?

45:52
Veronika Becher
We want to. Your brain is almost like there's this thing where your brain tries to do everything, can to not do anything. So you being on the couch is a normal stage of your brain being happy. You being a couch potato is your brain being happy. The moment you actually need to get up and get off your phone is when your brain hits you right now.

46:14
Veronika Becher
And it's like, why are we doing that? This is a safe place.

46:17
Veronika Becher
Being a couch potato. So we try to simplify everything from, like, our names, our identity, putting people. People into boxes. There are so many things in layers, I think, where simplicity comes into play, but I think just names are really interesting in the backgrounds. And I think we could even have a second episode about names.

46:38
Abdullah Najar
Oh, I'm sure. I can't believe that was. It's like you never really think about these things. I never. Like, your questions put me in a position where I was like, man, this is actually some pretty interesting stuff that I never thought about, but I had, like, I already had maybe a few ideas in mind, but it's. Yeah, no, names are just such an interesting subject there. I mean, origin of names, why we use the names that we use, and why, like, even. I'm sure you've. You told me about this and we talked about it before, how even in certain resumes, when you look at the name, it's very telling. Right. Of maybe where the person is from, who they are, whether or not they should be accepted or whether or not, you know.

47:22
Veronika Becher
Yeah, my. My dad's friend, like, from work, he actually decided to accept his wife's last name instead of, like, you know, going the traditional path because she had a Dutch last name. And really often Dutch companies, for some reason hire you if you have a Dutch last name. And so he gave up his German last name to have a Dutch last name to get accepted. He got the job because of his last name. It's. It's so crazy if you think this way, that a last name in name can give you, like, you don't even need a picture. You don't need to put the thing where you say a resume shouldn't have a picture. And then you're actually, like, not gonna judge the person. You will, because. Yeah, a name can give you, like, an image of what the person could do. Exactly.

48:12
Abdullah Najar
And if were to play a game right now, you and I, if I were to say, if I were to give you the name Arthur, and if I were to give you the name Gary, you probably would have very.

48:24
Abdullah Najar
Different images in your mind of who Arthur is and who Gary is.

48:29
Veronika Becher
Arthur, I think of, like, Great Britain for some reason or like, you know, like, with the. With the sword. What's the story about Arthur?

48:38
Veronika Becher
The.

48:38
Abdullah Najar
The sword? Yeah.

48:39
Veronika Becher
Yeah.

48:39
Abdullah Najar
They do a lot of theater plays about it.

48:42
Veronika Becher
And then Gary, for some reason, I think of someone typical American.

48:51
Veronika Becher
Okay, I don't want to say typical American anymore, but I wanted to say something like. I was thinking of, like, farmlands.

48:57
Abdullah Najar
Exactly. You see how. So you see that image, Right? We're guilty of it as well. It's not the ones at the HR department.

49:05
Veronika Becher
He's, like, exposing me. No, I'm joking.

49:08
Abdullah Najar
I'm also guilty of it.

49:09
Abdullah Najar
I'm honestly.

49:10
Abdullah Najar
Yes.

49:11
Abdullah Najar
Names are powerful. And if I were presented with. If you told me you had two friends, you had an Arthur and a Gary, I would probably, in my mind. And I'm guilty of it. I'd probably be thinking of an Arthur and someone who may be more refined, you know?

49:28
Veronika Becher
Yes. And Gary. The opposite.

49:30
Abdullah Najar
Exactly.

49:31
Veronika Becher
So you do the same thing. And so that's. My dear listeners, is why we double check and meet people before we judge them based on the name or we forget. I forget names all the time. That's even worse. Like, I feel like I just strip.

49:45
Veronika Becher
Them down, their identity.

49:48
Veronika Becher
I just forget names. And I can't remember and recall them. Not because I don't try. It's just super difficult. And certain names I can't even properly, you know, comprehend, understand, even, like, remember, because I've never heard them before. And I'm like, how do you pronounce this name? Like, I don't even know how to remember. I literally have lists with names in it where I keep track of names, basically. Yeah, we probably have to do your second episode about names and, like, identity, but I think it was a nice kind of touch on names. And if you ever see an application and you feel like this name represents something that you've seen, and probably a lot of people pick names based on TV shows, but.

50:36
Veronika Becher
Or, like, famous people.

50:38
Veronika Becher
Please just be mindful that this person might be completely different. Gary.

50:42
Abdullah Najar
Or a completely different Arthur.

50:44
Veronika Becher
Yes. Than you anticipated.

50:47
Veronika Becher
So thank you so much for being on podcast and I hope we're going to tell the John story next time. So.

50:53
Abdullah Najar
Yes, it's going to be hilarious.

50:55
Abdullah Najar
Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed this.

50:56
Veronika Becher
Veronica, thank you so much, too. And I hope you have a wonderful weekend, wonderful start into the week, and to hear from you guys or from me soon. Bye. Bye.